A-wh-wh-wh-what!?

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:46 am

[QUOTE=fable]My point is simply that while corporations are enabling the development are ever more visually attractive games, with longer development times, they're also dictating a pattern where nobody tries anything new. All games must fit a pattern of established success. If anybody fails, it's the fault of the developer, who must be axed.
<snip>
[/QUOTE]

Which is also one of my main "pet-peeves" with game development these days, and is also why I often get nostalgic over games

The Z · Post by **The Z** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 10:19 am

I wouldn't say that all the creativity's gone though. EA produced Alice (I think) which was a really trippy take on the story. Sierra produced Homeworld which was pretty innovative. The System Shock Series and Deus Ex (the first) were pretty novel ideas, along with Thief.

But in general, yes, a lot of games are hiked up versions of other ones. Besides weapons and some physics, Quake 3 and UT are pretty much the same games...not that I'm saying I don't like 'em.

Anyways, I'm going to go play UT now

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 11:14 am

I wouldn't say that all the creativity's gone though. EA produced Alice (I think) which was a really trippy take on the story. Sierra produced Homeworld which was pretty innovative. The System Shock Series and Deus Ex (the first) were pretty novel ideas, along with Thief.

Alice, while fun, was a shooter. Deus Ex was a first person action game that added a few RPG elements to exactly the same sort of titles Warren Spector, its producer, worked on for Origin Systems. Each of these examples is a good game, but not a creative title, one that tries rethinking basic ways in which we play, think, or feel.

So what do I mean by a creative title? Take Guns or Butter. Chris Crawford, one of the brilliant innovators in RPGs (he invented the realtime combat genre, among other things) actually created genuine AI in a game. Not rule sets; not actions that are pre-programmed. He established genuine AI, with baseline emotional reactions among all computerized players and you, and allowed each computer player to evaluate the way each other player acted with the others, and the choices they made for peace or war. This remains revolutionary, and nobody else ever grabbed it and ran with it. It's much, much simpler to devise rules. For all that the Civilization series is great fun to play (And I still thnk Alpha Centauri is better, still), those games use rule sets to determine how opponents act. That explains why they're just not up to the level of intelligence of your average player.

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 1:24 pm

[QUOTE=fable]A KotoR could have been made 20 years ago, allowing for limitations of visuals and such.

But a Hidden Agenda, Guns or Butter, or Darklands wouldn't be made today. [/QUOTE]
Oh man, I loved Darklands. I'd rather see a worthy sequel to that made than just about any other major game in development right now.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 4:21 pm

[QUOTE=Kayless]Oh man, I loved Darklands. I'd rather see a worthy sequel to that made than just about any other major game in development right now.

[/QUOTE]

Agreed. It was an extraordinary RPG, reinventing the Central Europe of the early Renaissance not as it happened, but as its inhabitants believed it to be: evil Knight Templars, witch covens taking over small towns, kobolds controlling mines, dragons out of Revelations, etc. PC creation was perhaps the most sophisticated I've ever seen, asking you to select sex and economic group, then going in increments of five years as you select one or another profession/study with all the detailed effects displayed that your choices will have on your basic set of attributes and all your skills.

I had some lengthy conversations with the developers after it came out. Their research was really enthusiastic and thorough, and we talked about a range of things they included, and what they wanted to include, but couldn't. The game did very well, but like everything that succeeded at Microprose while Wild Bill Steadley was in charge, there were no successors.

Monolith · Post by **Monolith** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 6:28 am

You really made me curious. I got Global Dilemma ( Guns or Butter?) and Darklands through the internet ( some abandonwear-sites) and I'm going to try out both.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 7:32 am

Yes, Global Dilemma is Guns or Butter. As a game per se, against all the tons of options available in today's games, it's going to seem primitive. But I wasn't praising it for its sophistication; rather, its creativity. He also designed (but not in GoB) a system of communication with computerized opponents based on symbols that's actually a lot less stilted than the multiple choice stuff we get in RPGs; but the system required getting used to, so that went nowhere.

You might be able to acquire a copy of Hidden Agenda if you look around. The author, Jim Gasperini, created the most sophisticated model I've yet seen of a regional culture, based intensively on his own experience of it (Latin America). You can read about it here, and acquire it here, though Jim will only email copies to people who explain 1) why they're interested in the game, and 2) promise that they will donate to one of ten non-governmental organizations working in Central America (Oxfam, Rainforest Alliance, etc).

I reviewed HA when it first appeared in 1988, and was amazed at what it achieved. A shame nobody has been interested, since. Jim himself wrote me that he'd tried to get large companies interested in providing the development funds for a similar game set in the MidEast about 10 years ago, but was told that there was no interest in the area at the time. Nowadays, he's simply moved on to 3D computer work, disgusted with what he perceives as the wholesale sell-out of games to the gaming industry.

Noober · Post by **Noober** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:01 am

It would appear that NWN2 is official: http://www.atari.com/nwn2/

Press Release: http://nwvault.ign.com/news/data/1091641729000.shtml

Not to be developed by Bioware though

instead Obsidian Entertainment

Monolith · Post by **Monolith** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:02 am

@Fable
I'm surly going to take a look at it, thanks for the info.

But back to the topic:
Neverwinter Nights 2 is officially announced - Obsidian Entertainment will develop it. I also read that they plan to work closly together with Bioware.
The release date is set to the year 2006/2007 if we consider the usual delay ( They are working on Star Wars Knights of the old Republic II right now).

In my opinion Obsidian Entertainment is a good choice, just because of the past of some of the employees (ehm, although I have to admit that I don't really know their past. Some of them were part of the Black Isle Studios and that's all I need to know.)
Although NWN wasn't what I've expected it to be it is a nice game I still play from time to time.

EDIT:
LOL thanks Noober

. Looks like you were faster...

Noober · Post by **Noober** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:04 am

^^ hehe just beat you

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:07 am

It is mentioned in last nigths news here on GB also - and a topic sprung up right after in the NwN forum - so the game can be discussed there.
I hope they have more success with NwN2 then they did with NwN1 - it was dissapointing in terms of what it was supposed to be

But now we can wait and see who gets BG3

Noober · Post by **Noober** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:09 am

Just a small quote from Georg Zoeller of the Bioware Forums:

[QUOTE=Georg Zoeller] Hey

Please do not rail this thread into pointless "company a is better than company b" mudslinging. In the end, having two RPGs to play instead of one is a good thing for the community.

BioWare is happy to work with Obsidian and we definitly want to see them succeed in making NWN2 a great game. We are providing the BioWare Aurora Engine to Obsidian to help build Neverwinter Nights 2, and we will provide technical support for the engine. BioWare is also providing design advice on the project at Atari’s request so that the original vision of the game is passed on to the new team.

I'll leave the thread open for now because I suspect that cutting of one thread will just spawn another on the same topic in a couple of minutes as there are not many other places to go right now to talk about it.

Quote:
its a real shocker that Bioware is involved considering they've been routing threads about it to off topic.

The messaging was "we are not working on NWN 2 at this time", which was correct. [/Quote]

So Bioware will help on NWN2.

Monolith · Post by **Monolith** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:09 am

Bah, that was teamwork. You spread the word and I delivered the details...

Anyway you mentioned you don't like the idea of Obsidian Entertainment developing NWN 2 - instead of Bioware. Bioware is working on a RPG with an own developed realm and skillsystem right now. That's something I really look forward to. And just like I said, Obsidian Entertainment will work closly together with Bioware.

EDIT:
Hell, AM I a little slow today?

Noober · Post by **Noober** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:12 am

Just why I don't like Obsidian that much:

[QUOTE=Falconhurst (Bioware Forums)] Bioware is much better than Obsidian. The IWD/IWD2 series that were done by Obsidian/Black Isle people are crap compared to Baldur's Gate 2 and NWN (minimal dialogue, shallow character development, just hack and slash, no NPCs to pick up, etc.) I know some of their people had experience at Bioware, but honestly I'm scared at what the clowns at Obsidian will do given their mediocre past product quality compared to the proven, consistently excellent record of Bioware. I just wonder why BOTH the SWKOTOR and NWN sequels are going with different developers. SWKOTOR is a best seller and breaks records (same with NWN), and so they have the sequel done by a completely different developer? Bizarre if you ask me, a stupid move on Atari's part. [/QUOTE]

Though Planescape pwned.

Monolith · Post by **Monolith** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:20 am

Well, that's very contradictive, isn't it? Ask XandaX what his opinon of NWN is

and there are many who dislike KOTOR as well, at least that's my impression ( I haven't played KOTOR and I don't intend to - I'm not very much into that Star Wars stuff...).

I liked IWD 2, maybe more than NWN. It WAS a hack 'n' slash type of RPG and that was exactly what the developers intended to do. I haven't played IWD 1 though...

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:56 am

I'm currently not a big fan of Bioware, so I’m glad they arne’t developing neither SW:KotOR2 or NwN2.

They disappointed me (and many others) strongly with NwN - it was not released as what it was promised/supposed to be.
It has taken the community years to make multiplayer servers fronting what NwN was supposed to be at game launch – and they surly took their time developing NwN, so time was hardly an issue. It isn't the community job to make the game - it is their job to enjoy and play the game. Modding a game is nice and all, but not when it is to be used to bring basics into the game.

I wasn't all that impressed by SW:KotOR either. Good graphics, good sounds and a good action game, but it was a run of the mill RPG.

I know the games have sold well, and that magazines fell down in awe of them, but that doesn't mean they are good enough, there is nothing wrong with expecting progress in the gameplay instead of only in the graphical section.
I also don't have much respect for magazines reviews anymore, because I find them way to superficial in many aspects, and simply praising hype. Hype is bad.

I hope Obsidian can do something great with NwN2 - but I'm not holding my breath. The gaming industry is becoming way to mainstream and all about earning the easy/fast money, and thus deep complex gameplay is neglected due to focus on good graphics and sound.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:33 pm

As long as they are using the Aurora engine, the game will always be subpar

And just to support Xan, I'm sure some people still remember my initial, scathing remarks about NWN (until I retried it, under the community influence, and even then

). Simply put, Bioware is slowly dissapointing. While I enjoyed KotOR, it was simply a one time shot for me. I can't play through it again, simply because I did everything. I don't feel the urge to play through as evil, because quite frankly, the only real evil choice you make comes at the finale of the game. Not much point there in making a real choice, is there?

Will NWN2 be a success? More than likely. Will it be good? Well, the Magic 8-Ball says "The Future Is Unclear".

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:10 pm

[QUOTE=Aegis]<snip>
And just to support Xan, I'm sure some people still remember my initial, scathing remarks about NWN (until I retried it, under the community influence, and even then

<snip>
[/QUOTE]

Hehehe - every chance you get

But I still think NwN in multiplayer can be an excellent game. I just feel it is bad that the community has to make it that.
As for the Auroa .... I don't care much about graphics so I don't care the Auroa engine is sub-par in that department. I do however dislike the engine because it seems to have technical problems (memory leak possible, or just shappy programming?) and causes the game to lag on my computer.

As for the magic 8-ball..... well it is the most vauge answer ever

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:52 pm

Well, I thought it was rather mean when the Magic 8-Ball said 'You'll be seated next to John Romero at the next E3'

Noober · Post by **Noober** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:43 am

[QUOTE=Xandax]I'm currently not a big fan of Bioware, so I’m glad they arne’t developing neither SW:KotOR2 or NwN2.

They disappointed me (and many others) strongly with NwN - it was not released as what it was promised/supposed to be.
It has taken the community years to make multiplayer servers fronting what NwN was supposed to be at game launch – and they surly took their time developing NwN, so time was hardly an issue. It isn't the community job to make the game - it is their job to enjoy and play the game. Modding a game is nice and all, but not when it is to be used to bring basics into the game.

I wasn't all that impressed by SW:KotOR either. Good graphics, good sounds and a good action game, but it was a run of the mill RPG.

I know the games have sold well, and that magazines fell down in awe of them, but that doesn't mean they are good enough, there is nothing wrong with expecting progress in the gameplay instead of only in the graphical section.
I also don't have much respect for magazines reviews anymore, because I find them way to superficial in many aspects, and simply praising hype. Hype is bad.

I hope Obsidian can do something great with NwN2 - but I'm not holding my breath. The gaming industry is becoming way to mainstream and all about earning the easy/fast money, and thus deep complex gameplay is neglected due to focus on good graphics and sound.[/QUOTE]

Please, play some co-op NWN, its far more fun then any other CRPG (please don't flame me

). And some of the characters had great depth. Ok, only one. But the number of threads based around this single character.....

The reason I really liked NWN, is because of the far greater character depth granted by 3 ed rules. It made pvp servers possible.

And don't forget that some people brought NWN just so that they could create their own adventures (some of my friends did that). And others for the DM client that no other game provided (except Vampire).

Also Kotor is one of my favorite single player RPG's, even over BG. I've played BG through once, compared to about 6 for Kotor. And Kotor was VOTED goty by Gamespy users, not chosen by the editor. And the fact that I didn't have to play for 5 hours just to get into the game...

I think the reason Bioware took soo long was to create the toolset and DM client. So that probably a reason why they want to keep the Aurora engine, they don't want to waste so much hard work.