How hard is it to play a Paladin? (Some Forgotten Realms and insertions as well.)

taltamir · Post by **taltamir** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 6:05 pm

I would think it was clear from the fact that its hosted on GEOCITIES, aswell as their disclaimer, that the SRD is not in any way approved by or affiliated with Wizards of the Coast.

Ofcourse you have the ability to make up things, they cant stop you from THINKING. The problem is making up ones that fall within the framework of the game and dont unbalance it.

And I wasnt refering to monopolizing and the like when I was comparing it to MS. I meant how marketing pretty much rules the way the products are developed. Instead of first making a good product and then going about selling it.
Its better for making money, but not for making QUALITY products. That why people need to support those who DO make a good product and then go about selling it, so that it is a viable buisiness model so that they survive to give us more goodies. (its called voting with your dollar by economists)

The Great Hairy · Post by **The Great Hairy** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 6:41 pm

@taltamir
Look here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35
and here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d2 ... /20040123c

WotC not only originally produced the SRD, they fully allow anyone to copy, reproduce, print, bundle, sell or distribute it. Check the licenses on the WotC site as well.

As for WotC making quality products - they do, according to a lot of people. They sell a heap of books every year. Which is why they make so much money. I personally like quite a few of their products. Vile Darkness was excellent, Frostfell was quite good, the core books are all very much worthwhile, Races of Stone was good, etc., etc. Sure, they produce some rubbish (everyone does) and they certainly have some stuff I will not touch with a barge pole, but in general they are not too bad.

Steve Jackson games are also pretty good - I love In Nominae. GURPS is not my thing however, and I haven't bought anything to do with it.

It's all personal opinion mate.

Cheers,
TGHO

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 5:38 am

@TGH
I've got all the core books.

I make up a lott too, but I like books to get inspiration from them.
Also, it helps creating a solid world with recognisable thing. Otherwise everyone make up locations as they like. I like to 'materialise' the world more, so to speak.

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:16 am

[QUOTE=Rob-hin]@TGH
I've got all the core books.

I make up a lott too, but I like books to get inspiration from them.
Also, it helps creating a solid world with recognisable thing. Otherwise everyone make up locations as they like. I like to 'materialise' the world more, so to speak.[/QUOTE]

I'd agree with you there, Robby.

BTW, would you mind checking your PM if you haven't gotten the chance yet? You might want to read this.

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:05 pm

Race and Paladins

Let's take a different aspect of Paladins into consideration: Race. In both D&D and the Forgotten Realms, Humans, Aasimar, and Half-Celestial humanoids (more than likely humans, in this case) are generally seen as the common races from where Paladins come from.

In the Forgotten Realms, though, there are some non-human races that take part in fostering some Paladins, particularly Dwarves (Gold and Shield varieties, in this case), and Strongheart Halflings. Of course, the Halfling deity Yondalla, according to Deities and Demigods, is both Lawful Good and has levels in the Paladin class, so this seems to reflect much on such practice in the Realms.

Are there any other races from any material in particular that may sponsor Paladins in both D&D and the Forgotten Realms?

Fiberfar · Post by **Fiberfar** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:10 pm

In the book Unearthed Arcana, all races can be different types of Paladins.
i.e a half-orc can be a Paladin of Slaughter or a Paladin of Tyrrany.

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:20 pm

Somehow the Drow came to mind, but they'd be better fit as Blackguard.

This got me thinking about a underdark race that could have a paladin... none.

It's not a dangerous place for nothing.

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:21 pm

[QUOTE=Fiberfar]In the book Unearthed Arcana, all races can be different types of Paladins.
i.e a half-orc can be a Paladin of Slaughter or a Paladin of Tyrrany.[/QUOTE]

Well, seeing as I don't have Unearthed Arcana, I would wonder if these are actual Paladins, as in Lawful Good and the actual class. By the sound of those concepts, that doesn't exactly sound heroic.

Fiberfar · Post by **Fiberfar** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:27 pm

[QUOTE=Galuf the Dwarf]Well, seeing as I don't have Unearthed Arcana, I would wonder if these are actual Paladins, as in Lawful Good and the actual class. By the sound of those concepts, that doesn't exactly sound heroic.[/QUOTE]

Their alignment are Chaotic Evil (don't know why they are called Paladins).
But there are also a Paladin of Freedom, which sounds more like a heroic person.

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:42 pm

[QUOTE=Rob-hin]Somehow the Drow came to mind, but they'd be better fit as Blackguard.

This got me thinking about a underdark race that could have a paladin... none.

It's not a dangerous place for nothing.

[/QUOTE]

Don't forget that some Shield Dwarves and Gold Dwarves have underground cities and holds, but then again, they are equally likely to settle underground, overground, or even in the middle of a mountain, so counting them as a Underdark race is likely a misnomer.

That reminds me, why don't we have a thread (either here or Forgotten Realms, which ever works best) for race or sub-race ideas, no?

Fiberfar · Post by **Fiberfar** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:48 pm

[QUOTE=Galuf the Dwarf]
That reminds me, why don't we have a thread (either here or Forgotten Realms, which ever works best) for race or sub-race ideas, no?[/QUOTE]

That would be a good idea.

Btw: There is a book called Races of destiny (don't know if it is out in the stores yet). Which i think is about races and subraces.

The Great Hairy · Post by **The Great Hairy** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:36 pm

Interesting discussion guys.

Firstly, WotC is currently releasing a bunch of books covering the core races, and adding in new ones. Races of Destiny is the book covering Humans, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs and a new race (the name escapes me). Races of Stone covers Dwarves, Gnomes and Goliaths (a race of large, mountain-top dwellers). Races of the Forest will cover Halflings, Elves and a new race. Races of Stone is out, Races of Destiny should be out this month (I think) and Races of the Forest is out in Feb 2005.

When it comes to different races having Paladin classes - well, anyone can make an argument for any particular race/class combo. Personally I think Paladins are more likely to be Humans and Half-Elves than any other race, however this is a generalisation, and does change quite often. I have played a hobgoblin Paladin, which was a lot of fun. Again, it comes down to character background and creation.

Underdark races - snvirfneblin could certainly produce Paladins, and I could see a Drow Paladin of Ellistrae. Even a duergar could be a Paladin, although not a follower of Laguder of course. I think (although I cuold be remembering this wrong) that the Book of Exhalted Deeds had a Mind Flayer Paladin...

Unearthed Arcana (Monte Cook's book) is not my thing - I've read it, I don't like it. However the idea of evil Anti-Paladins has been around for a long time (I think there was a Dragon article many years ago which came up with a Paladinic class for each alignment). With a bit of tweaking, it is a class which could be set up for a PC.

Cheers all,
TGHO

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:41 pm

[QUOTE=The Great Hairy]Interesting discussion guys.

Firstly, WotC is currently releasing a bunch of books covering the core races, and adding in new ones. Races of Destiny is the book covering Humans, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs and a new race (the name escapes me). Races of Stone covers Dwarves, Gnomes and Goliaths (a race of large, mountain-top dwellers). Races of the Forest will cover Halflings, Elves and a new race. Races of Stone is out, Races of Destiny should be out this month (I think) and Races of the Forest is out in Feb 2005.

When it comes to different races having Paladin classes - well, anyone can make an argument for any particular race/class combo. Personally I think Paladins are more likely to be Humans and Half-Elves than any other race, however this is a generalisation, and does change quite often. I have played a hobgoblin Paladin, which was a lot of fun. Again, it comes down to character background and creation.

Underdark races - snvirfneblin could certainly produce Paladins, and I could see a Drow Paladin of Ellistrae. Even a duergar could be a Paladin, although not a follower of Laguder of course. I think (although I cuold be remembering this wrong) that the Book of Exhalted Deeds had a Mind Flayer Paladin...

Unearthed Arcana (Monte Cook's book) is not my thing - I've read it, I don't like it. However the idea of evil Anti-Paladins has been around for a long time (I think there was a Dragon article many years ago which came up with a Paladinic class for each alignment). With a bit of tweaking, it is a class which could be set up for a PC.

Cheers all,
TGHO[/QUOTE]

1) The Halfling & Elf books is called Races of the Wild. RoS mentioned that Dwarves are quite capable as Paladins, but Goliaths really aren't.

2) Deep Gnomes really tend toward the neutral alignments, primarily due to their racial deity, Callurdan Smoothhands (True Neutral, for reference). Unless Ellistrae permits Paladins in the way that Sune does, I wouln't really think so.

The Great Hairy · Post by **The Great Hairy** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:19 am

[QUOTE=Galuf the Dwarf]1) The Halfling & Elf books is called Races of the Wild. RoS mentioned that Dwarves are quite capable as Paladins, but Goliaths really aren't.[/QUOTE]

Whoops, I got the book wrong. Sorry, I misremembered the title.

IIRC, Goliaths main alignment is Chaotic, which does make them a little less likely to be Paladins. I can't remember all their gods off hand, but I would suggest that creating a minor LG aligned god for them would not be too much of a problem (and thus enabling the Paladin class a little more).

[QUOTE=Galuf the Dwarf]2) Deep Gnomes really tend toward the neutral alignments, primarily due to their racial deity, Callurdan Smoothhands (True Neutral, for reference). Unless Ellistrae permits Paladins in the way that Sune does, I wouln't really think so.[/QUOTE]

<Shrug> I'm sure Deep Gnomes have more than one god. Same for good aligned Drow, although you'd probably have to create both, I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Cheers mate,
TGHO

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:07 am

A confession of ethics.

[QUOTE=The Great Hairy]Whoops, I got the book wrong. Sorry, I misremembered the title.

IIRC, Goliaths main alignment is Chaotic, which does make them a little less likely to be Paladins. I can't remember all their gods off hand, but I would suggest that creating a minor LG aligned god for them would not be too much of a problem (and thus enabling the Paladin class a little more).

<Shrug> I'm sure Deep Gnomes have more than one god. Same for good aligned Drow, although you'd probably have to create both, I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Cheers mate,
TGHO[/QUOTE]

Well, I suppose it's time I admitted this. I don't really feel comfortable bending the rules to my benefit. I can go for making my own stuff (Cleric domains, feats, etc.) but bending the rules so that Deep Gnomes, Drow, and Goliaths more prone to become Paladins feels like I'm preparing to tear the entire gaming world asunder.

Sure, there are benefits from breaking away from the common fashion, but I find even greater strength in the traditional feel that the books themselves give.

taltamir · Post by **taltamir** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:38 pm

Its not the rules you are bending in that manner. Its the setting. Setting != Rules. (at least it shouldn't in any half decent rpg... and if it is, just ignore that part and treat it as if it isnt... dm prorogative)

The Great Hairy · Post by **The Great Hairy** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:36 pm

I agree with taltamir on this one, Galuf. It's not bending the rules to make these races more likely to be Paladins, it's enabling the world setting to offer wider choices to players who want a specific Race/Class combination.

Whilst you are hesitant, maybe ask your players to come up with their ideas around a specific PC build, one you wouldn't normally allow as such. See what they have to offer. Maybe they can come up with something you really like!

Cheers,
TGHO

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:55 pm

[QUOTE=The Great Hairy]I agree with taltamir on this one, Galuf. It's not bending the rules to make these races more likely to be Paladins, it's enabling the world setting to offer wider choices to players who want a specific Race/Class combination.

Whilst you are hesitant, maybe ask your players to come up with their ideas around a specific PC build, one you wouldn't normally allow as such. See what they have to offer. Maybe they can come up with something you really like!

Cheers,
TGHO[/QUOTE]

Also, I'm not into Pen & Paper, honestly. I'm really into D&D/Forgotten Realms games, so "asking my players" is asking myself alone.

I'm not a DM. I'm just a guy with thoughts concerning D&D and such.

taltamir · Post by **taltamir** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:05 pm

I would also like to point out that paladins are the embodiment of good lawfulness... and I can hardly see a lawful good order and god discriminating against beings and refusing to allow them to join simply because their species usually exhibits certain traits.

I can just imagine an orphand tiefling being raised by a retired paladin.. and picking up the trade himself when he grows up.. fighting against the evil tendancies within, and the prejedice without, while following what he was tought by his "father" (adoptive).

Have you played the neverwinter nights module Necromancer I: Alligience (or something like that)... if you play it as a good character, then its a perfect example.

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:36 pm

Now hold on a minute...

[QUOTE=taltamir]I would also like to point out that paladins are the embodiment of good lawfulness... and I can hardly see a lawful good order and god discriminating against beings and refusing to allow them to join simply because their species usually exhibits certain traits.

I can just imagine an orphand tiefling being raised by a retired paladin.. and picking up the trade himself when he grows up.. fighting against the evil tendancies within, and the prejedice without, while following what he was tought by his "father" (adoptive).

Have you played the neverwinter nights module Necromancer I: Alligience (or something like that)... if you play it as a good character, then its a perfect example.[/QUOTE]

1) It's not that I believe it doesn't happen. I'm trying to find which races are the most common for Paladins, especially with each race/sub-race's cultural inclinations. It seems that not too many races really seem to sponsor such righteousness. I'm trying to see through the misconceptions of the Paladin class, exposing what is true by universal rule standards (as in what a DM MUST enforce to really make it a fun and functional game). So, the setting dictates much about how characters and all should be played. What else? If you things really need to be held together to make it both a playable and entertaining game (especially when Paladins are involved), then what are they?

Yes, I can imagine that orphan Tiefling situation as well. In fact, one of the members of our board has writtern numerous stories about a Tiefling Paladin of Torm. Still, isn't there be more than just "fighting inner evils" (whether by biology or not) and "spreading righteousness, honor, and helping the defenseless" to Paladins, aside from the individual personalities and gameplay mechanics of the character itself?

3) Nope. I've honestly have never touched NWN at all. The only D&D games I've played are the 'Baldur's Gate series,' 'Icewind Dale 2,' and 'The Temple of Elemental Evil.'