Overdone, with some musings on tone thrown in...

[Sellsword]

Does anybody else feel that Bioware over did it with the introduction of Dragons, Liches and Beholders in SoA? Not counting ToB (which I have yet to play) I count five dragons, about twelve Liches and at least thirty beholders. Now dragons and liches are meant (in AD&D) to be super-rare; you might just find one of each in a large country and beholders are very far from numerous! Now I know that it was probably difficult to find powerful enough opponents to test the PCs throughout the game, but surely they could have done better then simply throwing the games hardest monsters at them every time! A lot of the time their presence isn't even really explained; while the Kangaxx thing works quite well and Firkraag involvement seems reasonable, what is that powerful shadow dragon doing serving a wimp like the Shade Lord (I don't know about anybody else, but I was expecting a much tougher battle there!) and what is a lich doing hiding in a little room next to a thriving inn (the Crooked Crane)? Meanwhile most dungeons in the game seem to have a resident lich and damn near all seem to feature a resident Beholder...



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[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Sellsword ]

[Xandax]

Well you are the son of Bhaal

I look at it this way, many quests are quests that ordinary adventures can't handel(ei. Mazzy' adv. band) so the enemies are rare, but you just "fall" into them because of your heritage.

[Gruntboy]

This is a common complaint and one I agree with.

BG1 offered a challenge without these enemies. IWD & HoW offer a *huge* challenge without such powerful foes. Indeed, in IWD a dragon and a demon are your final enemies, not the cannon fodder you meet along the way.

Which is the man reason why I will put off getting ToB for as long as I can hold out.

There are 2 grounds for such a gripe. Firstly, although its fantasy it is still based in reality. Liches, Dragons et al are indeed rare enemies. Secondly, its laziness. A roomful of Wights, a clever trap or a an enemy ambush can be just as chalenging as an all powerful lich but its easier to stick the lich in than think of clever AI.

Get IWD & HoW and use you brains and your brawn.

[Garcia]

this is actually a good observation Sellsword.

I took it for what it was and didn't really think about it but since you brought it up I do remember from "the old role play days" that they are very rare. beholders not as much as the other two but still not on every corner. But as Xandax say you are put right in the middle of everything and in the "old days" normally you only did one quest here it is multible quests.
they could have regulated this by giving the foes a bigger scale of level, like humans are not all the same, there is a diffrince fighting Rambo with machinegun and snow white with a teespoon. they are not all the same to fight just because they are the same race. perhaps instead af a dragon a kobolt that had been in traningcamp with the shaolin monks all his life or something I don't know.

[Xandax]

Originally posted by Garcia:
<STRONG><snip>perhaps instead af a dragon a kobolt that had been in traningcamp with the shaolin monks all his life or something I don't know.</STRONG>

*ROLF*

I can just imagine a kobold jumping up to my PC and starts kicking his ass with his hands
*yip yip*

[Zelgadis]

Originally posted by Garcia:
<STRONG>perhaps instead af a dragon a kobolt that had been in traningcamp with the shaolin monks all his life or something I don't know.</STRONG>

That would hands down be the funniest fight in the game.

[Sellsword]

I believe all this to be the symptoms of a greater problem; Black Isle are far too interested in combat. In pen-and-paper AD&D combat is boring as hell. Admittedly it works better in a computer game, but the developers have taken that idea and run way too far with it. All of the games major side-quests (by which I mean stronghold quests) are solved through combat. The only ones which deviate even slightly from this formula are the Mae'var's Guildhouse quests (a couple of minor thieving quests; remarkably uninspired ones to be sure, but at least their there) and the Cult of the Unseeing Eye quest (that businness with Sassar, the Rift Device and the lost god was a genuine highlight, though it didn't exactly push any barriers too far). Even these quests are however, ultimately solved by killing everybody in the building and by fighting your way down to encounter the Unseeing Eye respectively. Irrespective of your character class or alignment, the game can only be completed by cutting a river of blood through the Forgotten Realms. This is a collosal pity.

Now don't get me wrong, I did enjoy BG II, but it could have been so much more. Pen-and-paper AD&D reacts to characters increasing power by moving away from combat; the game takes on a more political flavour. High level characters should be extremely rare and powerful individuals, easily capable of influencing the course of history within the realms; this is doubly true of your Child of Bhaal Player Character! BG II is full of possibilities in this respect! When he/she gains a stronghold the PC is effectively given "a piece of the action;" the stake he/she needs to effect the flow of events within Amn. Amn itself, with her many struggling factions, is the perfect setting for this type of plot structure. BG II wastes all these opportunities and then, in an effort to provide your PC with formidable opponents for combat, floods its setting with hugely powerful characters! An atmosphere of oppressive evil and a sense of mystery would have made it a much better game. If only to fight was made the incorrect option a few more times (I think that it is only during the Anoman's sister's murder plot that combat is discouraged in BG II). This would also have made the game more challenging as players would be forced to rely on their wits instead of their +5 sword. If only conversation amounted to more than simply choosing between the "obviously correct" polite option and the "obviously going to get you no where" rude option. If only puzzles amounted to more than just riddles and lever-pulling. Developers need to learn that games can follow other paths than hack'n'slash.

(Oh well: keep an eye-out for my Neverwinters Nights modules people!)



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[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Sellsword ]

[THE JAKER]

I agree somewhat with the view that there are too many overpowered monsters in SOA. I think that bringing the cumbersome D&D combat system over to a computer makes combat so much easier that enemies like Beholders, who were incredibly slow to fight in PnP because of all of their rays, suddenly are available. Available doesn't mean good, however.
The game sometimes just cracked me up - here's my party of 9/10 level folks exploring the capital city - Hey what's behind this secret door? Oh cr**! (Your main character has been killed. You must reload the game to continue.) I mean, what's the likelihood of that lich hanging out right there and no-one noticing but me, anyway?

[MegaToerist]

The developpers at Bioware can create some non-combat role-playing too! Just give Torment a try. Okay, it's a bit darker as a setting, but you don't have many fights! I think it's about 10% of the quests that are based opun fight. (of course, you can always get yourself into one by saying wrong things... )

TC, Geert

[Kheruldin]

As MegaToerist says is Planescape torment a "not so much fighting game". Its brilliant if i can say what i want. Its almost better than BG2. But i guess most of you who plays BG has played PT also so i think you know what im talking about. But if not... Try it out. You have missed the best!

[cgardenh]

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* One gripe that I have always had with CRPG's as well as many DM's is that they introduce powerful monsters only at level appropriate times. Why can't a first level character meet a dragon. And why on earth would a seventh level character choose to fight one. Without resorting to cheap tricks most people early on in the game cannot defeat Firkraag, or the shadow dragon in Umar Hills. Not that I think ceartive strategies as opposed full frontal assault are cheap but what dragon would allow you to set traps at his feet, cast spells on him, or summon creatures without defending himself, that's patently ridiculous. If you chooseone of the dragon areas as opposed to de'arnise keep or trademeet as your first side quest your prospects are not good. Parley or flight is the only reasonable option in these cases. However, they are not really an option for a good character such as a paladin. Plus Firkraag has carsomyr and the shadow dragon has part of the crom fayr recipe which makes them difficult to pass up. I wish bioware would offer a more realistic deal with the devil type situation with these NPC's as dragons are smart, not only arrogant and would realize their own mortality at the hands of a powerful party and a god-child. The dragons could try to get you to do something evil for these prizes. This would be especially good if this had actual consequences on your character, for example alignment change loss of experience etc. Also any lich worth their salt would have complex wardings near their abodes. Remember most lich were arch mages and are often above the human range of intelligence. Why would they take a chance on fighting a group of dumb*** fighters and a mage or two who could possibly end their eternal reign of evil. I don't have much problem with beholders except that they should have and anti magic ray. The spectator in sahuagin city and ToB was on of the coolest NPC's in the game.

[Nippy]

OK I have a few things to say and I might get a bit of flamage but it's jusy my opinion.

1. Remember that you are a child of Bhall. Liches and Dragons etc would know this and would consider you a threat on sight so they should react hostile.

2. As a child of Bhall you are threatened by powerful enemies so the only way to survive is fight back.

3. Anybody that uses cheese to beat high level enemies is only fooling themselves. It is their choice to do it but they do not get the same experience as fighting a dragon "fairly".

4. AI in a CRPG is difficult to implement, you have to remember that PS:T was indeed more conversational but that was the developers choice to make it that way, the same for BG2 it was Black Isle's choice to make it more combat orientated. In my opinion you cannot properly mix the two. It would be too complex. While I agree that waiting for a game to be good instead of rushed is better the publishers make the choice for release. It is their decision and the developers have to make the game reach the target, they have little choice in the matter.

5. The success of a game is always met by popularity. How many hardcore AD&D'ers out there? Lets face it, most peoples hunger for games are sated by the combat. While a few people may want to do "nice" options, most want to fight.

6. RE The combat thing by Sellsword. Like I said earlier most people want combat, besides how many people check a wall in a tavern for a secret door or carry a Rogue Stone unless they know about it? Remember around 90% of the game world is populated by commoners and they do not look for trouble.

I hope that people look at my comments and give me some feedback, the only we can develop opinions is to share our own.

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@cgardenh

You can do something evil for Firkragg, you can kill Windspear and get the deed of the land for the dragon and in return get a cloak of the shield. Lets say this is *really* evil.

[ThorinOakensfield]

Other things also.
How does one city have so many high level adventurers roaming around.
Level 10-13 adventurers in the sewers.
level 14+ in a compound. (glabrezu is a lv. 8 spell. mage must lv. 16)
what the hell are yuan'ti doing in d'arnise keep. They're from Underdark aren't they?
How does a tiny drow establishment under the ocean, have mind flayer, beholder, deep gnome, and kuo tao cities and settlements and survive. And also a white dragon.
It makes sense that the shade lord has a shadow dragon, but what the hell is the beast doing without any treasure? Frkaag being a red dragon should have tons of gold, and by seeing how powerful he is(the whole army) he really should. Why is the drow city a bunch of floating platforms.
And what is Jaraxle doing so far from Menzonberranzan?
Bg1 was alot more realistic.
Hobgoblins and bandits taking over the countryside, kobolds attacking mines, thats more realistic. Makes sense having enemy powerful enemy parties since they were all part of the plot unlike in BG2 where they're just roaming around.
The enemy parties in BG1 were hired by Sarevok and the Iron Throne which is a very powerful organization. The guys at the mines in Cloakwood, on top of the building, in Candekeep, and before the final battle (after all those guys were hired by the highest most powerful of the iron throne lords).

[Sellsword]

Originally posted by Nippy:
<STRONG>
1. Remember that you are a child of Bhaal. Liches and Dragons etc would know this and would consider you a threat on sight so they should react hostile.

2. The success of a game is always met by popularity. How many hardcore AD&D'ers out there? Lets face it, most peoples hunger for games are sated by the combat. While a few people may want to do "nice" options, most want to fight.

3. RE The combat thing by Sellsword. Like I said earlier most people want combat, besides how many people check a wall in a tavern for a secret door or carry a Rogue Stone unless they know about it? Remember around 90% of the game world is populated by commoners and they do not look for trouble.
</STRONG>

1. Very few people/monsters in BG or BG II know that you are a child of Bhaal instinctively; I'm sure there are other examples, but only Viekang (met in the Trademeet inn) comes to mind, though there are more who recognise that you are different (such as the Trademeet fortune teller and Portalbenderwinder from the first game). Nothing (in the real world or BG) which automatically reacts to a threat with hostility is going to last long.

2. My point was that the correct reaction to most things in BG II is to fight it; there are exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions. I find that dull. If other people do not then thats fine, but I would suggest that they would be better placed on a Quake III forum. I think that RPGs should have a bit more depth, particularly when they purport to have more depth, as BG II does.

3. You don't actually have to look for the secret door in the Crooked Crane you know; just stand around for a few seconds and it will appear. As for the Twisted Rune encounter well, anybody who reads the scroll that they find on Koshi's body is going to know how to reach it, while opening the door when you happen to be carrying a rogue stone is perfectly possible.

Thorin - I agree with you about the sewers (for most of the people in Athkatla it would be a case of go down into the sewers and die!), but I've got to stick to my point about the shadow dragon; the Shade Lord is a wimp! Apart from the similarity of their names (shade~shadow) I can't think of any reason for this relationship, particularly considering all dragon's famous arrogance!

(They might just about follow another dragon. Maybe. If the other dragon was way more powerful than they were. And if there was no way in which they could get out of it.)

Nice taste in literature by the way.

(Tolkien is not dead! He's just living with Elvis on the dark side of the moon...)



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[cgardenh]

Nippy, If you are a good guy do lose something fo being evil? That's the rub I think.

[koz-ivan]

re: dragons.

i don't believe that the dragons were in fact overdone, you don't need to fight any of them. it's not until tob when dragon fights become mandatory. from a paladin's (or powergamers) perspective the red is well worth fighting, for both the armour & sword. if infact dragon hoards were up to pnp standards then it would be open season on dragons, and parties would be slaying them for no reason other than cash, wouldn't they?

beholders & liches - these were much too common for my taste.

we may have become too familliar w/ the game i.e. it's easy to forget the non combat portions of the game.
the asylum was not very combat oriented, mostly traps, puzzles, item a opens slot b kinda stuff, but once you finish it the first time or read a walkthrough it's ho-hum been there done that, no replay value. (at least fighting firkragg gives the player some different tactical options)

and just to play devil's advocate, if every quest was like the limited wish quest, wouldn't that bother just as many people? if not more? isn't that also the worst quest in terms of replay value, since it's the same every time?

can we kill something now? - lillacorr

[Nippy]

@ cgardenh

Yes I believe you lose Rep for it.

Don't get me wrong Sellsword, I agree that there is too much combat in BG2. I was putting across the Average Joe's demands in a game. How many peasants do you know that carry a Rogue stone? Also how many are going to be able to crack the lock to enter the guarded compound and beat that lot. It is a high level encounter and very few people would be able to meet them.

The only thing I can say is that this is a game. There is supposed to be no patch on real life (there are dragons and undead!) and so there is no way that they can create intelligent reactions as they don't know how a Lich would react to you. It's just a game, a good one a that with a few flaws. Every game has them as does real life. C'est La Vie...

[Xyx]

Originally posted by Sellsword:
<STRONG>Does anybody else feel that Bioware over did it with the introduction of Dragons, Liches and Beholders in SoA?</STRONG>

Definitely! If Athkathla had one commoner for every big, bad high level enemy, the streets would be so much busier...

Originally posted by Garcia:
<STRONG>I do remember from "the old role play days" that they are very rare. beholders not as much as the other two but still not on every corner.</STRONG>

The "old days" also include games like Pool of Radiance (one Dragon (sort of) as boss) and Eye of the Beholder (guess what the boss was here ).

They also include the eventual sequel to Pool of Radiance: Pools of Darkness. That game had level 14 Vampire Thiefs on every corner of the streets, and you'd fight several flights of Dragons at some stages.

Originally posted by Sellsword:
<STRONG>I believe all this to be the symptoms of a greater problem; Black Isle are far too interested in combat.</STRONG>

In *my* humble opinion, BG is a Diablo clone with added bits of soap opera and sidequests. A wonderful game, but BG != PnP (A)D&D.

Originally posted by Sellsword:
<STRONG>If only conversation amounted to more than simply choosing between the "obviously correct" polite option and the "obviously going to get you no where" rude option.</STRONG>

Those are indeed painfully obvious...

Originally posted by THE JAKER:
<STRONG>I mean, what's the likelihood of that lich hanging out right there and no-one noticing but me, anyway?</STRONG>

The game is full of these things. Apparently, everyone knew about the Lich but you...

Originally posted by cgardenh:
<STRONG>I don't have much problem with beholders except that they should have and anti magic ray.</STRONG>

*** Shameless self promotion ***

Try my Smart Beholders (in the sig). They actually use their Anti-Magic ray (which has always been there), and quite effectively IMO. It gives 100% spell failure to spellcasters and dispels most enchantments.

Originally posted by cgardenh:
<STRONG>any lich worth their salt would have complex wardings near their abodes. Remember most lich were arch mages and are often above the human range of intelligence.</STRONG>

A dozen or so Skull Traps, Delayed Blast Fireballs and Symbols should take care of most intruders.

Originally posted by Nippy:
<STRONG>AI in a CRPG is difficult to implement</STRONG>

But not impossible! If I can drastically improve Beholder AI, why wouldn't the designers be able to do so?

Originally posted by ThorinOakensfield:
<STRONG>And also a white dragon.</STRONG>

A Silver Dragon, actually White Dragons are Evil. Metallic Dragons (Silver, Gold, etc.) are Good, chromatic Dragons (Red, Blue, Green, etc.) are Evil in D&D.

Originally posted by Sellsword:
<STRONG>I've got to stick to my point about the shadow dragon; the Shade Lord is a wimp! Apart from the similarity of their names (shade~shadow) I can't think of any reason for this relationship, particularly considering all dragon's famous arrogance!</STRONG>

I'm not entirely convinced that the Shadow Dragon is a "real" Dragon, it not being either the metallic or the chromatic type.

Originally posted by koz-ivan:
<STRONG>if every quest was like the limited wish quest, wouldn't that bother just as many people? if not more? isn't that also the worst quest in terms of replay value, since it's the same every time?

can we kill something now? - lillacorr</STRONG>

Indeed! Combat usually has replay value. Good RPG stuff with replay value is also possible, but much harder to make. The romance stuff is a good example, since you cannot experience more than one at a time (unless you use Sabre's Happy Scripts, of course )

[THE JAKER]

Xyx, are you seriously saying that every patron of the Crooked Cane, the bartender, and the guards at the City Gates know about the Lich, and they are just going about their business, having a drink and chatting? Seems like maybe they would find another bar to hang out in or something.

[fable]

If only conversation amounted to more than simply choosing between the "obviously correct" polite option and the "obviously going to get you no where" rude option.

This is the central problem for CRPGs, and precisely why PnP adds an extra dimension. There are just too many nuances to conversation that can lead to all sorts of events--and building a dialog tree out of even one such conversation might well consume enough code for a game by itself.