Anit-Patriotism

Ekental · Post by **Ekental** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:53 pm

Hehe... not much time to post but this is seeming to lead into the curse of bureacracy and the negative connotations of being a civil servant that has no doubt been a rub off of sterotypes conveyed to most of the government. I mean I haven't seem many people take pride in being in a government job... I have yet to see a bumper sticker that says "Civil Servant and proud of it" or some such...

ACK gtg been out of the loop for a while and then when I come back lots of talkie on this horribly typoed thread... (Hint hint to a mod???? Please correct my embarassing mstake? XD)

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 12:37 am

That's because the neo-cons (and their equivalents in a few other countries) have a done quite a brainwash on people, getting them to believe that government is inherently evil and incompetent. Consequently, civil servants are a bunch of faceless bureaucrats trying to prevent poor, average people from going about their daily business.

The fact that these same neo-cons want to control government clearly indicates what they really think. And the fact they believe the US government, which couldn't be trusted to build roads, can install a democracy in a nation that hasn't seen it for thousands of years of recorded history and make it work overnight, says a lot for both their naivety and hypocrisy.

Civil servants make government run. Consequently, they make countries run. The problem isn't the civil service, but nations where the society has developed a culture that accepts corruption, incompetence and graft. Then you get poor civil servants, but you get the same conditions reproduced elsewhere, as well.

Macleod1701 · Post by **Macleod1701** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:06 am

@ Fable, Indeed! I'm a civil servant and am regularly disgusted by peoples attitudes towards me and my colleagues. Like we're trying to steal from them when in fact WE pay them so many benefits that it's almost pointless for me to work!

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:39 am

Just wanted to let everyone know that the reason I haven't replied to some previous comments is that I have been kind of sick and away from the computer most of the time. I may get around to it, but haven't been in the mood for debate. Apologies.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:01 am

[QUOTE=Macleod1701]@ Fable, Indeed! I'm a civil servant and am regularly disgusted by peoples attitudes towards me and my colleagues. Like we're trying to steal from them when in fact WE pay them so many benefits that it's almost pointless for me to work![/QUOTE]

Not to mention that government workers, at least for many states, are woefully over-worked and under-paid. The federal government under Reagan and Shrub has slashed funding to the states, leaving them forced to layoff many employees without lessening workload. But it's not a "sexy" issue, the kind you can easily explain in 30 second sound bites to an audience that votes without responsibility or knowledge.

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:13 am

[QUOTE=fable]Not to mention that government workers, at least for many states, are woefully over-worked and under-paid. The federal government under Reagan and Shrub has slashed funding to the states, leaving them forced to layoff many employees without lessening workload. But it's not a "sexy" issue, the kind you can easily explain in 30 second sound bites to an audience that votes without responsibility or knowledge.[/QUOTE]

I can honestly say that until I worked where I do now, I had no clue. I had erroneously believed in what had been fed to me over the years - just like my other fellow Americans. There is just as much job insecurity where I work as there is in the private sector. My private sector equivalent (an executive assistant) makes much, much more money than I do.

The Texas Comptroller announced a $400 million budget surplus for the state of Texas. Out of this, we can expect: 1) A pay raise for Legislators (and no raise for state employees for the fourth year in a row); 2) Draconian cuts in Health and Human Services once again (over $7 million taken away from my agency alone, and we are but one agency amongst several within the Health and Human Services Commission); and 3) Continued privatization of state services.

My prior conditioning caused me to view Unions with distaste. Enter the state employees union here, however. Their opposites are the Legislature. I am sorely tempted to join.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 7:27 pm

jopperm2 wrote:I also don't like how he claims to be a devout Catholic but openly endorses things that suggest that that isn't true. I'm not saying he has to be the Pope's lap dog, but at least addressing moral concerns with issues like abortion and research would be a good move for him I think. More like how he addressed gay marriage.

France is a catholic country, and they have free abortion. Being a catholic does not mean you have to be fundamentalist. Most European catholics don't give a damn about the pope. What I find very disturbing though, is that all US leaders have to proclaim that they are christian. Monotheistic religious fundamentalism as base for politics is IMO one the most destructive political system you can havve.

fable wrote:Many nations with a better social net provide a wide range of services that the US doesn't and never did. They allow their workers shorter work weeks, and better pensions. They support paternal leave for births, federally funded childcare for workers, and incentives to small businesses that the US has long eliminated. And all of that is offered at far less than 100% taxes. But I think Dottie, C Elegans, or someone with actual experience living in the frigid zone can better speak to that.

LOL, Eketal posted that 6 people in Sweden payed more than 100% income tax. Technically that is not possible since the limit for income tax is 56%, but if you have gained a lot of money from selling stock of something, have a major wealth at the bank in cash and also declare a low income, it may be possible that the total amount of tax is higher than your actual income. In any case, 6 people out of 9 million certainly indicates these are extreme cases. Sweden has a progressive tax rate, which I think is excellent. I have a higher than average income, and I pay about 32-33% I guess. Only if you have a really, really high income like business CEO:s and such, you reach up to the 56% limit.

It's similar in all Scandinavian countries. IIRC you pay about 20% tax in Florida, and considering we have tax funded education, health care and medicines, child care, pension, roads, public transport, 13 months maternal and paternal child leave, sick leave etc, I think you get a lot more for your money in Scandinavia.

Jopperm] I'm lucky that I live in the US so I don't have to pay for other people's junk. [/quote] This is a view that many Europeans find shockingly egoistic and inhumane. Personally I could not stand living in a place where there is such a disregard for children wrote: Perhaps it is selfish, but frankly I don't care about fellow man for the most part. What's mine is mine. I have been injured, unemployed, homeless, without insurance. All those things. I never complained.

So you are saying that you value your material wealth and possessions more than the health and life of your fellow man?

Also, you state that you support military spending because you want the US to be the most powerful nation in the world, but you do not support equal opportunities to education and health care for the population of the US?

So, in conclusion, military power for your contry and your own material belongings is what you consider most important things and values in your life?

I will post more later, but I agree with everything Xandax has posted and I think you should consider that contrary to what you believe, people starve, suffer and die from disease in the US due to a health care system based on insurances not everybody can afford. I cannot imagine why you accept that children die in infections because they can't afford the treatment. People with schizophrenia and psychosis don't get their medication because neuroleptics are expensive. The average American does not have access to neither education nor health care that is equal in quality to what you find in the rest of the Western world. And you say this is acceptable because material possessions and military power is more important?

Macleod1701 · Post by **Macleod1701** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:08 am

[QUOTE=fable]Not to mention that government workers, at least for many states, are woefully over-worked and under-paid. The federal government under Reagan and Shrub has slashed funding to the states, leaving them forced to layoff many employees without lessening workload. But it's not a "sexy" issue, the kind you can easily explain in 30 second sound bites to an audience that votes without responsibility or knowledge.[/QUOTE]

Well I can't speak for the US but as with most government agencies in the UK the 'High Flyers' get stupendous salaries while the lower echelons get the short end of the preverbial stick. Hence why I'm looking for work in the private sector, better pay, better oppertunities!

In regards to taxation and the like, I don't mind paying tax so that people have free health care, education for kids and so on, (well except for people who smoke and do drugs but I've moaned enough about that in another thread). I'd consider myself rather selfish, I care about my family and friends and about my possesions but I would never begrudge someone health care if they needed it, and as for military spending to make a country the most powerful in the world......thats just stupid on so many levels, are you intending to take over or something?

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:58 am

[QUOTE=Macleod1701]In regards to taxation and the like, I don't mind paying tax so that people have free health care, education for kids and so on, (well except for people who smoke and do drugs but I've moaned enough about that in another thread). I'd consider myself rather selfish, I care about my family and friends and about my possesions but I would never begrudge someone health care if they needed it, and as for military spending to make a country the most powerful in the world......thats just stupid on so many levels, are you intending to take over or something?[/QUOTE]

I think you mean this for Jopperm2, not myself. I have no interest in taking over any other nation ("making the world safe for [insert whatever buzzword will enthuse your voters, here]").

Macleod1701 · Post by **Macleod1701** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 10:20 am

Sorry fable I can't remember why I put your quote in although I do know there was a reason and yes I did mean the second part towards the meglomaniac.
Everyone knows I'd be the better choice to rule the world anyway. Fair and kind, gorgeous and wonderful, raining down vengeance left right and centre with a smile on my face lol

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 11:15 am

France is a catholic country, and they have free abortion. Being a catholic does not mean you have to be fundamentalist. Most European catholics don't give a damn about the pope. What I find very disturbing though, is that all US leaders have to proclaim that they are christian. Monotheistic religious fundamentalism as base for politics is IMO one the most destructive political system you can havve.

What percent of French people are actually practising Catholics? IIRC when I was in France, the two Sundays I was there(Easter included) there was hardly anyone at mass. It seems to me that most countries in Europe are Atheist countries. There are even large popular secularist groups that lobby for those efforts. THe reason that most US sleaders are Christian is that most Americans are Christian. In actuality though, not all leaders here are Christian. In 2000 Joe Lieberman Nearly won the Vice Presidency. He still won his senate seat and is fairly powerful in the Senate. He's Jewish. Not that there's a huge difference between Jewish and Christian, but Jews are a pretty small minority in the US and there are a fair amount of Anti-Semites here. Anyway. I don't think there is a huge problem with the politicians expressing religious views as long as they are in line with their constituency. I wouldn't expect a Christian to win office in Iraq. More likely I would expect assasination attempts.

This is a view that many Europeans find shockingly egoistic and inhumane. Personally I could not stand living in a place where there is such a disregard for children, elderly, handicapped, ill or just poor people. Having more money does not mean you are smarter, better, or have more potential. Using amount of money as the sole selection criteria, is contraproductive for the entire society since money is not a marker of traits.

It is an egoist view and I consider myself to be an egoist. I choose who I want to support and who I don't care about. The government here does help children etc., perhaps not to the extent that some contries do, but I think it's a fair amount. People are getting back what they put in and more in some instances.

It's similar in all Scandinavian countries. IIRC you pay about 20% tax in Florida, and considering we have tax funded education, health care and medicines, child care, pension, roads, public transport, 13 months maternal and paternal child leave, sick leave etc, I think you get a lot more for your money in Scandinavia.

I think I may have misspoken when I said 20%. THat was my payroll deduction. I just did my taxes yesterday and my liability was about 3% of our household income(my wife works a little). We actually didn't pay that though since we have a child. The child tax credit negated it and earned income credit gave us more money on top of that. Total we will get back about $1700. That's more than we put in. So really I paid no taxes except sales tax. That's pretty good considering my wife got about $1500 in student grants, and my daughter used about $5000 worth of government medical insurance. I get about 2 weeks of sick leave from work so I don't need the government hand-out there. I think 13 months Maternity and Paternity leave is absolutely rediculous. I think I get the better deal.

@McLeod, I don't mean that we should be taking over the world, but we are a big target and we need to be the strongest. I frankly don't care what was going on in Iraq if we weren't in danger. I don't think we should be regulating the world with our military, which IMO is too big. I am saying we should cut it back, just not as far as some people would say.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:56 pm

It is an egoist view and I consider myself to be an egoist. I choose who I want to support and who I don't care about. The government here does help children etc., perhaps not to the extent that some contries do, but I think it's a fair amount.

It isn't. In fact, nothing is spent directly on children.

People are getting back what they put in and more in some instances.

This statement reflects no knowlede of reality, at all. We've repeatedly told you to check the facts, and pointed out how badly the system is working with both statistics and personal data. I've even posted some stats at one point from Iowa. (The ones about 18,000+ plus homeless people, including children.) You've presumably read these. Opinions to one side, if you're going to ignore whatever facts we present, there's no reasons to discuss these issues with you, Jopperm. Granted, you're more forthcoming and literate than the usual "I only care about me" posters that show up here from time to time, but it's no spur to conversation to exchange views with a person who acknowledges his facts are off, and then goes on reflecting the same views based on spurious facts that he's had before.

Macleod1701 · Post by **Macleod1701** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:14 am

@ Jopperm2 your not the only target in the world you know, being the biggest and strongest is counterproductive, it would, (if not has already) made you slow and ungainly. Just remember that a small fast attacker can easily avoid a large musclemans punches and retaliate, even if the small guy can't hit very hard, over time the muscleman will be worn down.