Canderous

alpha_hazard · Post by **alpha_hazard** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:03 pm

Does anybody else think Canderous get's the short end of the stick when it comes to his allignment? He's always talking about Loyalty, Honor and COmmitment, and yet he is still dark side? I don't think that's quite right... Sure he took part in the mandalorian wars and is definitely beligerent, but I really don't think he deserves the ammount of dark side allignment he's got...

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:26 pm

Alignment: don't let go there, again!

Any game that lets you forcibly enter the apartments of frightened people and steal all their belongings yet doesn't lower your morality for that, has some real problems with discerning wrong from right.

alpha_hazard · Post by **alpha_hazard** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:58 pm

Good Point...

Also, I think it's pretty funny how I can egg the kids hasseling the the ithorian on, ans still get light side points if I give him a medpack...

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:06 am

[QUOTE=fable]Alignment: don't let go there, again!

Any game that lets you forcibly enter the apartments of frightened people and steal all their belongings yet doesn't lower your morality for that, has some real problems with discerning wrong from right.

[/QUOTE]
Yes, but entering without permission isn't evil, it's just immoral. In the Star Wars universe, light and dark side are not the same as right and wrong. It's good and evil (In other words, think of it this way. There is good, neutral and evil, no Lawful, neutral/true, and chaotic).

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:46 am

[QUOTE=Aegis]Yes, but entering without permission isn't evil, it's just immoral. In the Star Wars universe, light and dark side are not the same as right and wrong. It's good and evil (In other words, think of it this way. There is good, neutral and evil, no Lawful, neutral/true, and chaotic).[/QUOTE]

It's not the entering that's the problem, though, Aegis: it's stealing the belongings of somebody else. And just in case you (meaning anybody) can't visualize whom it is, they show you cowering families, pleading for their lives.

That's very dark. Or put it this way: if it's light, they're one screwed-up bunch of pop culture icons.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:50 am

Bioware messed up many places in regards of the LSP/DSP awarding, in my view.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:31 am

[QUOTE=fable]It's not the entering that's the problem, though, Aegis: it's stealing the belongings of somebody else. And just in case you (meaning anybody) can't visualize whom it is, they show you cowering families, pleading for their lives.

That's very dark. Or put it this way: if it's light, they're one screwed-up bunch of pop culture icons.

[/QUOTE]
I understand what you're saying Fable, and I agree, but, that sort of act is not evil, because it was not don with malace, or hate. It was done out of greed for the item. That shows that the act is immoral, which would suggest a netural, or chaotic alignment, not a good or evil, and surely not a lawful.

Now, if you were to kill those people after breaking in, then it would become an evil act, because you have done something evil.

The Star Wars d20 system over simplifies the whole alignment thing, and as I said, they eliminate the lawful/neutral/chaotic spectrum, leaving only good/neutral/evil spectrum. That is why the awarding of lightside/darkside points seems arbitrary.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 12:01 pm

[QUOTE=Aegis]I understand what you're saying Fable, and I agree, but, that sort of act is not evil, because it was not don with malace, or hate. It was done out of greed for the item. That shows that the act is immoral, which would suggest a netural, or chaotic alignment, not a good or evil, and surely not a lawful.

<snip>[/QUOTE]

Well IIRC - many acts of greed in SW:KotOR is awarded by DSP.

sun_facer · Post by **sun_facer** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:58 pm

In terms of LS/DS, I kinda agree with the wisdom of Jolee Bingo.

He's neutral as a droid. Has the best of both worlds. Yet is a servant of the light - as Juhani said. He doesn't like the Jedi Council. Neither does he ally himself with the sith. Yet, you end up against him should you choose to walk with the dark side.

Concerning taking things from other people who let you into their homes, I quote Jolee "Sometimes you got to do what you got to do."

The definition of good and bad is what separates most of our views. So there is no standard to compare. I think the intention of a character's action leads to the LS/DS. Taking things that dun belong to you means "I need help if I want to move in this game." but doesn't mean killing anyone. Only except if in defense, like the case on Tatooine.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:05 pm

[QUOTE=sun_facer]Concerning taking things from other people who let you into their homes, I quote Jolee "Sometimes you got to do what you got to do."[/quote]

And when you make a game and proclaim as dungeonmaster that good actions are for the LS and bad actions gain DS points--then give no DS points for stealing all the valuables from families quaking in your presence--then I prefer the quote, "Sometimes, programmers put in features and do crap-all with 'em."

The definition of good and bad is what separates most of our views. So there is no standard to compare. I think the intention of a character's action leads to the LS/DS.

How does a non-sentient game measure the variables in the intentions of a player, or a character? There are numerous instances where you're rewarded with LS and DS points and it doesn't make much sense. (We've covered this topic in a variety of examples, before.) Personally, I just think Bioware tried to program actions-to-points, and didn't pay the matter too much attention when they entered the huge grey area in which most people, most of the time, truly operate. But each to their own.

I Am Naga Sadow · Post by **I Am Naga Sadow** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:32 am

Really, though, LS/DS points are supposed to measure how close you are to falling to the dark side (or how far you've fallen), so anything that scares you, or makes you angry should give you DS points

Darth Zenemij · Post by **Darth Zenemij** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 11:11 pm

[QUOTE=alpha_hazard]Does anybody else think Canderous get's the short end of the stick when it comes to his allignment? He's always talking about Loyalty, Honor and COmmitment, and yet he is still dark side? I don't think that's quite right... Sure he took part in the mandalorian wars and is definitely beligerent, but I really don't think he deserves the ammount of dark side allignment he's got...[/QUOTE]

Well if you pay atention he says that those are the ways of the mandolrians

Grandpa · Post by **Grandpa** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:30 pm

[QUOTE=fable]Any game that lets you forcibly enter the apartments of frightened people and steal all their belongings yet doesn't lower your morality for that, has some real problems with discerning wrong from right.

[/QUOTE]

fable, I *needed* their 50 credits and Medpac to get the Ultra Upgradable Exoskeleton Dark Side Quadruple Damage Immunity to Everything +5 armor. To save them from the Sith.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:14 pm

[QUOTE=Grandpa]fable, I *needed* their 50 credits and Medpac to get the Ultra Upgradable Exoskeleton Dark Side Quadruple Damage Immunity to Everything +5 armor. To save them from the Sith.[/QUOTE]

I detect a certain element of satire in your remarks that I very much approve of.

It does indeed seem that stealing a family's life savings is okay, while gathering cash by fighting a notorious bounty hunter who goes for the kill is Evil (tm). Alignment is an arbitrary mess in KotoR; Canderous is only one example. Matters were handled far better in this respect in KotoR2, IMO.

Grandpa · Post by **Grandpa** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:53 pm

I'm looking forward to playing the second installment. I hear lollipops go for a credit.

Admo · Post by **Admo** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:49 am

[QUOTE=Grandpa]I'm looking forward to playing the second installment. I hear lollipops go for a credit.

[/QUOTE]

Or you can break them down into 2 components with a high repair skill

(After all, it IS tricky seperating the lolly-stick without breaking the lolly)