Would you Die for Your Principles?

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:30 pm

A couple of years ago somebody posted this topic (http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/showt ... principle), and I remembered it as I was considering some of the subjects that have come up in the pope thread...
Specifically, I got to wondering.. if the new pope was actually coerced into joining the Hitler Youth... This led me to thoughts on the entire topic of morality and coercion more generally.

My question is: If somebody is coerced into a joining a repugnant movement are they morally justified? Similarly, can somebody be excused for heinous acts because they were simply "following orders?"

Would it be more moral to stand up for what you believe in and refuse to act or join, even if that means certain death?

CopperWater · Post by **CopperWater** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:40 pm

Thinking about it now I think that I would be a coward and join in with such a group but if I was faced with the confrontation and I knew I would be forced the kill people maybe I would die for my beliefs. Its hard to tell, I normaly avoid confrontation and join in the group but I dont know what I would do in such a serious situation.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:01 pm

I'd die for my beliefs. I've come close once already for it. In the case of joining a military body I was against, I'd join in the effort to cause as much harm to the group as possible. Refusing outright with no weapons is certain death with no worth. Joining, training and taking out half a squad at the first opportunity they deploy you to do acts your against, now that is a death worth your life IMO.

As far as being coerced into joining, if you aren't doing so to further your own beliefs, I'd say your corrupt and a coward.

To make it more interesting however, bringing family into it can pose a large number of problems. If you have children, young children, they depend on you to live. You are required to take care of them. Getting shot down for defiance doesn't quite cut it there. Where do you draw the line of going along with something to protect your children and to stand up for what you believe in because all of your deaths are preferrable to joining up with a group that does heinous acts?

CM · Post by CM » Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:22 pm

Yup. No question about. Faith, morals and nation. Hi ho hi ho its off to war we go with razor blades and hand grenades, hi ho hi ho.

the_limey · Post by **the_limey** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:00 pm

Choice- there is *always* choice, that's what sets us apart from animals. We may not like the alternatives but they are always there.

"We cannot choose what we are, yet what are we but the sum of our choices?"

Also: yes if it was necessary and the right thing I would die for my priciples, for the simple reason that if we have priciples and aren't willing to defend them with our lives we are no better than lawyers.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:08 pm

Depends on the principle and situations. There are way to many hypothetical elements to be able to give a "real" answer.

hodge · Post by **hodge** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:38 pm

no way.

FiOth · Post by **FiOth** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:32 am

IMO,being made to do something that goes against your morals is like using you as an instrument.Ppl should have the right to act as they will as long as they don't hurt anybody.Freedom(real freedom not the American style"We kill for resources and call ourselves freedom fighters so all idiots around the globe will feel proud") is the most precious thing in any person's life.

arno_v · Post by **arno_v** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:13 am

You can't really answer this question if you haven't been in one. I know it would be more moral to stick to your principles and die for them, but I can't predict what I will do if I really have to make such a dicision.

ik911 · Post by **ik911** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:27 am

[quote="FiOth]Freedom is the most precious thing in any person's life.[/quote"]That's exactly part of the dilemma. What if there is an enemy force threatening the country that you and your ancestory helped build? Wouldn't you want to defend your country?
And what if you can help achieve higher goals, a better world, by joining an army to fight for the good cause? Wouldn't you want that?
What if you were given the opportunity to take out the scum of the earth and make it a better place for everyone? Wouldn't you do that?
Or what if you can make your family proud? Or all of the above at the same time?
What are your principles worth if you're dead, huh? Anyone thought about that?

I'm a great coward, but if I feel I can make a difference and be of help to a lot of people, I would join a collective like the army. Only when the war I fought is over and history, I will be able to tell if I fought on the good side, or the bad side. You'll never know that in advance. My principle is: "I want to do good", and that is why I would join if my country needs me. But if I can do good in another way, behind an office or in a lab, I would ofcourse prefer that. Decreased chance of getting shot and dying a painful death, you see...

As it is now, I don't see any reason to join the Dutch Royal Army, because I can't help people by doing nothing of importance or the Navy by sailing on expensive ships that serve absolutely no purpose.

Brynn · Post by **Brynn** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:57 am

[QUOTE=CM]Yup. No question about. Faith, morals and nation. [/QUOTE]
Everybody is so quick to give this answer... Have you really thought about it?

I don't think principles are the MOST important thing in life. (Besides, they can prove wrong one day...) Say, the communist come back (god forbid) and try to "persuade" me to join them and be their spy (just like they did to half of the nation a couple of decades ago). Well, if it was just me, I would definitely fight - but what if they threaten with hurting my family? I'm not sure I would keep to my holy principles if the other choice is endanger my loved ones...

[quote="Arno]You can't really answer this question if you haven't been in one. I know it would be more moral to stick to your principles and die for them"]
That's a more diplomatic answer, I second that.

Cuchulain82 · Post by **Cuchulain82** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:15 am

I tend to think that the truth of a situation depends heavily upon who percieves said "truth". I don't know if I would die for my beliefs, but I think that every time you have to stand up for something, you have to make a choice about value- some things are too important to not stand up for. "Principles" is a vague term- I wouldn't die for my religion (but I'm not religiously active) but I would fight for my family. I would fight to protect someone.

[QUOTE=FiOth]real freedom not the American style"We kill for resources and call ourselves freedom fighters so all idiots around the globe will feel proud"[/QUOTE]
I think you are wrong about this. What kind of freedom to you mean? It is easy to take a manichean approach and just say that "real freedom" is whatever is opposed to GW Bush's perceived imperialism, but in my eyes that is a cop-out. What is "real freedom" that you are talking about- the right to meaningful involvement in government? Rights of women? Rule of law? For centuries "real freedom" has been synonimous with the "American style" of freedom, so don't dismiss it so casually. As for killing for resources, I would first like to know what advanced industrial country doesn't have a history of fighting over resources or profiting from it?

winter rose · Post by **winter rose** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:20 am

There is not a point in believing in something if we are not willing to stand by it at all costs.

arno_v · Post by **arno_v** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:27 am

[QUOTE=ik911]
I'm a great coward, but if I feel I can make a difference and be of help to a lot of people, I would join a collective like the army. Only when the war I fought is over and history, I will be able to tell if I fought on the good side, or the bad side. You'll never know that in advance. My principle is: "I want to do good", and that is why I would join if my country needs me. But if I can do good in another way, behind an office or in a lab, I would ofcourse prefer that. Decreased chance of getting shot and dying a painful death, you see...

[/QUOTE]

Why would you join the army if you're not sure if it's fighting for good causes. You say your principle is "I want to do good" but it seems like you are willing to take the risk of fighting on the bad side as well.

ik911 · Post by **ik911** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:35 am

[quote="arno_v]Why would you join the army if you're not sure if it's fighting for good causes. You say your principle is "]It's the paradox of war. You never know whether you fight on the good side, if there is a good side, because even that can be vague. I'm completely against war, and I can afford that because it's the 21st century.
But back when war was a way to achieve something and I was convinced my side was the good side, I would join the army if I had to, because it would mean I would help the good side win, and that's doing good IMO... The Germans were pretty convinced their side was the good side, and so were the Brittons and the French and the Russians. If I were to be killed in such a war, yes, I would die for my principles, because I would die trying to do good.

hmmm.... What was my point again...

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:35 am

[QUOTE=winter rose]There is not a point in believing in something if we are not willing to stand by it at all costs.[/QUOTE]
Easy to say when they are abstract and hypothetical .... it is with all due likelyhood much harder to do when real.

Bloodstalker · Post by **Bloodstalker** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:29 pm

Hard to answer. The only definate answer i can give is I would gladly allow others to die for my principles. Just fill out the lackey application

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:36 pm

[QUOTE=Bloodstalker]Hard to answer. The only definate answer i can give is I would gladly allow others to die for my principles. Just fill out the lackey application

[/QUOTE]

I have one of those! Did I mention I'm in need of a head bartender to hire and direct more bartenders for my college? All the free Turkey you want and you get to take a set of twins home with you. One pair is looking for a home and is craving attention, poor lasses.

the_limey · Post by **the_limey** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:01 pm

[QUOTE=Magrus]I have one of those! Did I mention I'm in need of a head bartender to hire and direct more bartenders for my college? All the free Turkey you want and you get to take a set of twins home with you. One pair is looking for a home and is craving attention, poor lasses.

[/QUOTE]

Does this mean i can have a promotion on my fist day?

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:14 pm

[QUOTE=the_limey]Does this mean i can have a promotion on my fist day?[/QUOTE]

Nopity. Must perform in an excellent manner, unless BS doesn't want the job. Me thinks he'd be perfect for it...