Would you Die for Your Principles?

ik911 · Post by **ik911** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:02 pm

[QUOTE=Magrus]Nopity. Must perform in an excellent manner, unless BS doesn't want the job. Me thinks he'd be perfect for it...[/QUOTE]
Yes, that would be a logical choice since he's retiring... yup. uh-huh. yes. very well.

Oh, maybe I should add that this is meant in some kind of ironical sarcastic way? Nah, forget about it.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:27 pm

[QUOTE=ik911]Yes, that would be a logical choice since he's retiring... yup. uh-huh. yes. very well.

Oh, maybe I should add that this is meant in some kind of ironical sarcastic way? Nah, forget about it.[/QUOTE]

Sarcasm? Here? Oh no! *runs away*

Obsidian · Post by **Obsidian** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:55 pm

[QUOTE=dragon wench]My question is: If somebody is coerced into a joining a repugnant movement are they morally justified? Similarly, can somebody be excused for heinous acts because they were simply "following orders?"

Would it be more moral to stand up for what you believe in and refuse to act or join, even if that means certain death?[/QUOTE]

No, speaking as a soldier, you are allowed, to disobey an order if it violates your ethics, and are required to refuse an order if it is illegal according to the Geneva convention.

"I was only following orders" is not a defense under military law.

[QUOTE=Magrus] Joining, training and taking out half a squad at the first opportunity they deploy you to do acts your against, now that is a death worth your life IMO.[/QUOTE]

And when the rest of the section caught up to you, you would die a horrible, horrible death.

Would I die for what I believe? I'd risk my life for it, thats certain. Would I kill for it? Now that's a better question, any fool can die.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:36 pm

[QUOTE=Obsidian]And when the rest of the section caught up to you, you would die a horrible, horrible death.

Would I die for what I believe? I'd risk my life for it, thats certain. Would I kill for it? Now that's a better question, any fool can die.[/QUOTE]

Isn't that what any soldier risks going into battle? Capture and torture, or a bullet and death? Who's to say that group wouldn't torture me for resisting in the first place? Better to infiltrate and do as much damage as possible as a method of resistance than to just stand and be shot down. Yes, I'd kill for some of my beliefs, to protect innocents.

Cuchulain82 · Post by **Cuchulain82** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:33 am

If this discussion illustrates anything, isn't it the incredible nuance that comes with any life/death decision? I think the decision one makes is based heavily on the situation itself.

stormcloud · Post by **stormcloud** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:45 am

I'd say no, but it depends how extreme the situations are.

As for the pope question, its been proven that children are much more susceptible to joining stupid organizations ie brainwashing.

But adults should know better. As for people just following orders, we put a high emphasis on responsibility for physical actions, such as being at a death camp. So if you're only "mentally" at a death camp (ie supporting nazis), I guess its not as bad.

Personally, if commies are nazis came to my door and said "believe in this", I'd have no problems with it. If they put a gun in my hand and tell me to shoot someone, well i think I'd have a problem with it.

So the big issue is death of others/innocents. And I dont know how I'd react. But does anyone until they are actually there?

Locke Da'averan · Post by **Locke Da'averan** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:16 am

alot has changed from 3years past hmm*reads the previous post in the original thread..*.. i don't think i'd be willing to die atm for almost anything.. except the obvious ones..(world peace)etc. but if someone hurted/killed my loved ones, i'd die to get revenge

Cuchulain82 · Post by **Cuchulain82** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:08 am

[QUOTE=stormcloud]I'd say no, but it depends how extreme the situations are.[/QUOTE]
You're a black and white kinda person, huh stormcloud?

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:56 am

[QUOTE=Cuchulain82]If this discussion illustrates anything, isn't it the incredible nuance that comes with any life/death decision? I think the decision one makes is based heavily on the situation itself.[/QUOTE]

I think this statement probably encapsulates the entire question.
I have thought a lot about whether or not I would be willing to die for my beliefs.. And it is fine, subtle line.

If I were told that I had to personally harm others as a result of having been involuntarily "recruited" by some sort of extremist organisation I think I would say, "Yes, I would die for my principles." One, I could not live with myself on any kind of ethical level. Two, to endure such a horrific existence... countless nightmares and memories of heinous acts I had perpetrated... would be far, far worse than death.

But, if it were more the case that I was required to nod my head to any such group, providing just implicit support, I would pause. In such an event, what end would my death serve? How could I be useful to those I care about? How could I be useful in fighting for what I believe? Further, if I elected to remain alive, there would still be the possibility of passing along information to a group struggling against whatever organisation it happened to be.

stormcloud · Post by **stormcloud** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:20 am

[QUOTE=Cuchulain82]You're a black and white kinda person, huh stormcloud?[/QUOTE]

Actually no. I now believe every situation is unique.

Unless you were being facetious.

Locke Da'averan · Post by **Locke Da'averan** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:01 pm

[QUOTE=Magrus]Isn't that what any soldier risks going into battle? Capture and torture, or a bullet and death? Who's to say that group wouldn't torture me for resisting in the first place? Better to infiltrate and do as much damage as possible as a method of resistance than to just stand and be shot down. Yes, I'd kill for some of my beliefs, to protect innocents.[/QUOTE]

there's the unique reflex everyone faces when facing mortal danger.. some freeze, some berserk, some keep it together etc.. (i haven't been in live fire war or had to kill anyone) in the end the survival instinct kicks in and you do almost anything just to survive.. of course this doesn't apply to all.

Cuchulain82 · Post by **Cuchulain82** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:10 pm

[QUOTE=stormcloud]Actually no. I now believe every situation is unique.

Unless you were being facetious.

[/QUOTE]
No, actually I was being serious. I only ask because in the last few threads when I've said something about nuance or subjectivity or something, you usually disagree with me pretty quickly. I was just curious...

stormcloud · Post by **stormcloud** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:31 pm

sorry, i was replying to the OP and not meaning to refute your claims. my replies are usually @ the OP and not you. any semblance is circumstantial.

and honestly, i dont have a bone to pick with most anyone. the way i see it is everyone has experiences and preferences that we can all learn from; you can even learn things from the ones you dont agree with.

Cuchulain82 · Post by **Cuchulain82** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:34 pm

I like reading what you have to say, and you happened to reply to a lot of what I've said today. I didn't mean that I had a problem with what you were saying or that I felt like you were picking on me- I was just wondering about your perspective. No harm, no foul... just discussion

winter rose · Post by **winter rose** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:41 pm

[QUOTE=Xandax]Easy to say when they are abstract and hypothetical .... it is with all due likelyhood much harder to do when real.[/QUOTE]

Wrong.Most beliefs/ principles of ours are challenged at one point or another in our lives. They are rarely abstract and hypothetical.Im assuming that if we hold certain principles- we also apply them to our lives.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:06 pm

[QUOTE=Cuchulain82]For centuries "real freedom" has been synonimous with the "American style" of freedom[/QUOTE]

In America maybe - not necessarily in the rest of the world. The US type of freedom is based on positive freedom whereas there are other types based more on negative freedom and you also have combined efforts.

[quote="winter rose]
Im assuming that if we hold certain principles- we also apply them to our lives.[/quote"]

I agree with you that people should (what's the use of principles otherwise?) but you'd be surprised if you knew how common it is where I live that people, especially younger ones, express a lot of opinions but act in an inconsistent way. Like "I'm a vegatarian but I eat sushi because I like it" if you see what I mean. Opportunism, failure to assess long term consequences correctly and false self image are very common reasons for people not to act by what they believe are their principles in theory.

EDIT: I'm so tired I forgot to answer the original question

Well, I still stand by what I wrote in the old thread.

frogus23 · Post by **frogus23** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:45 pm

[QUOTE=C Elegans]The US type of freedom is based on positive freedom whereas there are other types based more on negative freedom and you also have combined efforts.[/QUOTE]I don't know if we just have a different idea about what its like in the US, but "rugged individualism", private sector public services, low taxes, rights to free speech & bear arms etc. are all definitive characteristics of what is normally called 'negative liberty', not positive. However it's not a desperately interesting discussion and not really relvent here...

Would I die for my pronciples?

I think this question is nonsense on stilts - as Cuchullain has suggested.
-Nobody can name a precise list of what 'MY PRINCIPLES' are.
-Not all principles are worth dying for. What about the principle that no human should die deliberately? The principle of life? The principle that vegemite is better than marmite?
-It is impossible to predict whether one's own death is going to have the effect one expects, and therefore it is impossible to predict if one is actually dying for one's principles, or inadvertently for something else, or for nothing at all.
-The psychology of a person faced directly and certainly with death is so far removed from that of everyday people that predictions about yourself (if you are not a Black Thief who has faced certain death before) in these situations lack all traces of credibility or verificability.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:33 pm

[QUOTE=frogus23]I don't know if we just have a different idea about what its like in the US, but "rugged individualism", private sector public services, low taxes, rights to free speech & bear arms etc. are all definitive characteristics of what is normally called 'negative liberty', not positive. However it's not a desperately interesting discussion and not really relvent here...[/quote]

I'm probably just mixing them up, I have worked 14-16 hours a day or more for 14 days in a row now so I am totally exhausted.

US type of freedom = no obstacles, same type as a lonely person at a remote island, the person is not constrained, but the actual reportoire of actions the person can do, is limited

Other major type of freedom = the possibility to actually do something, for instance get an education, often associated with the Scandinavian countries

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:08 am

[QUOTE=winter rose]Wrong.Most beliefs/ principles of ours are challenged at one point or another in our lives. They are rarely abstract and hypothetical.Im assuming that if we hold certain principles- we also apply them to our lives.[/QUOTE]

Well - have you defined your principles into a list which you are ready to die for?

One of my principles I live by, is try to be as nice to other people as I can... would I die for it? Heck no.
If somebody came up to me and said that I should stop opening doors for strangers, or they would kill me ... I'd stop in an instance. Eventhough it would go against a principle of mine.

Another principle is trying to be as thoughtfull as possible about what I read/hear/see in the medias. Would I die for that? No way.

Would I die if my country got invaded by the Swedes and they wanted to turn us all into slave? Likely not, but I'd fight to avoid it and then death would be a possible outcome. I wouldn't die for it, but I would fight for it.

Now - naturally these example is a bit "far fetched", but it only goes to show, the point I had. It is easy to sit here abstract and hypothetical and debate these things.

And a very good statement by Frogus, which I feel my opinion mirros nicely:

[QUOTE=Froggy Man]I think this question is nonsense on stilts - as Cuchullain has suggested.
-Nobody can name a precise list of what 'MY PRINCIPLES' are.
-Not all principles are worth dying for. What about the principle that no human should die deliberately? The principle of life? The principle that vegemite is better than marmite?
-It is impossible to predict whether one's own death is going to have the effect one expects, and therefore it is impossible to predict if one is actually dying for one's principles, or inadvertently for something else, or for nothing at all.
-The psychology of a person faced directly and certainly with death is so far removed from that of everyday people that predictions about yourself (if you are not a Black Thief who has faced certain death before) in these situations lack all traces of credibility or verificability.[/QUOTE]

I think a better question would be wether or not you'd fight for your principles then if you'd die for them.

ik911 · Post by **ik911** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 6:24 am

[QUOTE=Xandax]I think a better question would be wether or not you'd fight for your principles then if you'd die for them.[/QUOTE]Not really, because as CE already mentioned, what are principles for if you don't use them? In other words: principles are the reasons you'd fight. Without principles I don't think there'd be any use in fighting.
Instead, the question would be: are your principles realistic? But how would one know? As remarked often in this thread, it's almost impossible to predict how you're going to react in extreme situations.