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Faces in Smoke

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C Elegans
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Post by C Elegans »

ik911 wrote:often there is 'crap' with research and, more importantly, facts underneath it.
This is where you are mistaken. Most programs at Discovery are not based on facts, and research is not done. Unless you also call the tabloid press fact-based and researched.
I don't tune in to Discovery for info and facts, but for entertainment. Sometimes, by chance, I get a little info from it though.
Nothing wrong with that, but in order to distinguish what it facts and what is mere entertainment constructions, you certainly need a source for facts as well. Real facts and real science is much more entertaining than pseudoscience!
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Post by ik911 »

[QUOTE=C Elegans]This is where you are mistaken. Most programs at Discovery are not based on facts, and research is not done. Unless you also call the tabloid press fact-based and researched. [/QUOTE]
Yes, you're probably right; they don't give their sources. That the church held the myth up or anything like that can't be checked. But I seriously doubt that the DChan made up that there are no real/valid sources about feeding the Christians to lions because they were Christian... That would be a sick joke. I have to agree: To take it for a fact wouldn't be wise, perhaps.

[QUOTE=C Elegans]Real facts and real science is much more entertaining than pseudoscience![/QUOTE]Not if you can make a lot of money out of selling pseudoscience to rich, arrogant people. :)
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Post by Athena »

I advise anyone that reads this to read the Geek Quiz on page 5 of Louis' Once More Dear Friends Jokes Thread. Thank You.
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C Elegans
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Post by C Elegans »

ik911 wrote:Yes, you're probably right; they don't give their sources.
The general problem with commercial TV shows, is that they produce programs they believe will sell, not programs aimed to provide people with real information. I sometimes watched the Discovery channel many years ago, when they mostly showed nature programs, but even then they focused on "spectacular" things like "Killer jaws" or "Action packed hunts".
Not if you can make a lot of money out of selling pseudoscience to rich, arrogant people. :)
I meant from a consumer perspective. Real science holds many things that is far more fascinating than pseudoscience. I will just never understand how some people can find spooky voices making up fantasy stories about supposedly mysterious events more appealing than the great scientific questions.
Athena] I advise anyone that reads this to read the Geek Quiz on page 5 of Louis' Once More Dear Friends Jokes Thread. Thank You. [/quote wrote:
I did (although it's not on page 5 but page 2 for me, I obviously have a different setting to view the forums than you have), and I scored 5 points.
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Post by Athena »

Ha
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ik911
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Post by ik911 »

@Athena: I scored five too, and I found it on page 2, also. :eek: Now, stop drinking.

[QUOTE=CE]Real science holds many things that is far more fascinating than pseudoscience. I will just never understand how some people can find spooky voices making up fantasy stories about supposedly mysterious events more appealing than the great scientific questions.[/QUOTE]
So, are you never open to the mysterious untouchable stuff? Never willing to think about things that might not be true, but could perhaps be? Are you never amused by stories that don't come with sources and documents to prove it is true?
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Post by fable »

[QUOTE=ik911]Yes, you're probably right; they don't give their sources. That the church held the myth up or anything like that can't be checked. But I seriously doubt that the DChan made up that there are no real/valid sources about feeding the Christians to lions because they were Christian... That would be a sick joke. I have to agree: To take it for a fact wouldn't be wise, perhaps.[QUOTE]

There are several good sources for the old Christians-to-lions. The point is, they weren't many, and they were blown out of proportion as soon as the Orthodox Christians took over as the Official Roman Religion, thus making it the Holy Roman Empire. The Christians in any case killed far more pagans than the other way around, at the time; and when the pagans were a negliglble thread, they started banishing their own denominations.

This created quite a surprise for RCC bishops in the early Renaissance, who discovered that the Nestorian Christians of more than a thousand years earlier had actually escaped to several of the Indian countries and established a thriving community, there. :D
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C Elegans
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Post by C Elegans »

[QUOTE=ik911]So, are you never open to the mysterious untouchable stuff? Never willing to think about things that might not be true, but could perhaps be? Are you never amused by stories that don't come with sources and documents to prove it is true?[/QUOTE]

Oh, I spend most of my days thinking and working with things that may not be true, but there is a crucial difference between what is unknown and what is mysterious.

The term "mysterious", "mystical", usually refers to something that is beyond human power or human knowledge, something transcendent or "other- wordly".

This definition is the same as the one I use.

Under "synonyms", this above website list "mysterious, esoteric, arcane, occult, inscrutable. These adjectives mean beyond human power to explain or understand...What is esoteric is mysterious because only a select group knows and understands it: a compilation of esoteric philosophical essays. Arcane applies to what is hidden from general knowledge: arcane economic theories. Occult suggests knowledge reputedly gained only by secret, magical, or supernatural means: an occult rite.

To take an example, the issue "How is AIDS cured" is unknown, we don't know how to do there is nothing mystical, ie beyond human power, in this question. On the contrary, the issue can be investigated with objective methods and there is plenty of concrete, objective evidence that we will be able to find a treatment for AIDS in the near future.

Contrast this to the question "How is levitation done". There is no evidence that leviation exists, but for some individuals who subjectively claim to be able to do it. It has never been observed or recorded by objective, independent observers and it also contradicts the laws of physics and biology on this earth. If you want to explain levitation, you have to include mystical explanation models.

Now when we have clearly defined the terminology, I can easily explain why I am very interested in the unknown but totally uninterested in the mysterious: There is simply no evidence that anything mysterious exist. Thus, it is to me not interesting, fascinating, fruitful, productive or useful. It's exactly the same reason why I am not religious and do not believe in any gods.

I have read thousands of stories about "mystical" experiences and phenomena, and no research have ever shown there is something interesting in this apart from what happens in the human mind. That, on the other hand, interest me immensely as a scientific question.

Let's consider some common popular fields that many people like to explain with mysterious explanation models:

1. Religion - includes the belief in transcendental beings/powers/dimensions. There is no evidence such phenomena exists. I am however interested in religion as a subject, since it has had and still has, profound effect on human life and society.

2. After-life issues, near-death experiences, reincarnation etc - same as above, there is no evidence that any of this exists and it requires mystical explanation models. So called "Near death" experiences can be explained with current medical knowledge and they can be induced experimentally, so there is no need to add a level of mysticism to those reported experiences.

3. Ghosts, spirits - there is no evidence any of this exists. All attempts to make objective recordings or observations have failed. Therefore it's equally uninteresting to me as unicorns, mermaids or Santa Claus.

4. Astrology, tarot, different kinds of future-telling - the numerous scientific investigations of these have shown none of them can reveal anything more than the individual already knows. When you take a group of persons who believe in astrology and let a professional astrologist make their horoscope and then, double-blindly, randomise the distribution of the horoscopes so that the participant believe they get their own horoscope but in fact they get somebody elses, the participants it fits them equally well as their own horoscope.
This does not exclude that many people enjoy using astrology or tarot cards as a means to think about their own lives and themselves, and it does not contradict that some people who do astrology or tarot are skillful therapists and can help people, but the central issue is that there is no evidence there is anything in the particular methods astrology or tarot that is more efficient, more powerful or can add extra knowledge compared to if you use inkblots, colour maps or any vague stimuli. They all work by projection; people project into the stimuli what they want to see.

5. Extrasensory perception, telepathy, telekinesia, remote viewing - No other area of the "supernatural" is so extensively researched as ESP and telepathy, but despite of this there is no evidence any of this exists. Either it does not exist, or the effects are so small so they cannot be measured even in samples with thousands of people (in which case it's not a very interesting phenomena anyway). It doesn't matter if you do studies and observation on people who believe in ESP/telepathy, people who claim they have such skills, or people who do not believe or do not claim to have such skills, the studies show no support for the existence of any form of ESP.

6. Aliens and their connection to ancient human culture, modern alien visits etc - this is not transcendence but another version of "outside human knowledge". Whereas it is statistically very likely that life exist on other places in our vast universe, and earth-like planets have been observed, there is absolutely no evidence they have been here and even less evidence they have influence human architechture and technology etc. There is nothing mystical with the use of the pyramid shape at different continents - it's the simplest way to build a tall building!

7. "Mysterious" natural phenomena like crop circles, the Bermuda triangle, magnetic fields, etc - nothing has been observed that require a mystical explanation.

8. Numerology and code based mysterious - I think one example is sufficient. The journalist Drosnin published a book called "The bible code" that supposedly revealed hidden messages in the bible, messages that predicted future catastrophies and important events. The book became a bestseller. Drosnin got critisised for having exploited simple patterns of randomness in order to construct these messages. Drosnin said "When my critics find a message about the assassination of a prime minister encrypted in Moby ****, I'll believe them". Aussie mathematician McKay took up the challenge, and using the same method Drosnin used in "The bible code" his group found predictions of the murderer of Indira Gandhi, Martin Luther Kind, Abraham Lincoln, Leon Trotsky, Rene Moawad, John F Kennedy and Yitzhak Rabbin in Moby ****. And this although English leaves much less room for flexible interpretation than Hebrew, due to the vowels in English.
This is of course only one event, but we are yet to see any evidence that there are any hidden messages that differ from what you can find by chance, in any writings, be it Shakespeares, Leonardo da Vinci's, the bible, Nostradamus or what have you.

People who are uninterested in the mysterious and do not believe in things without objective evidence, are sometimes accused by believers for being "close minded(TM)". "Close minded" have been a label used by creationists, mysticists and other believers in things that are not supported by objective evidence, a label that is easy to throw out because most people associate close-mindedness with being stupid, uninformed and other generally negative characteristics. In any case, being open minded should not equal being gullible and uncritically receptive to anything other people tell you, anyting popular media writes, or anything that simply feels appealing. There is nothing positive, constructive or fruitful with confusing facts with what you feel is nice to believe. IMO people are entitled to hold whatever beliefs they wish as long as it is not discriminatory to others. The negative effects almost always start when people cannot differentiate between objective evidence and subjective experience and feeling.
"There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance." - Hippocrates
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Post by HighLordDave »

Hey, CE, you forgot to use the HLD Mode™ tags on your post.

I think faces in smoke are more a product of what people want to see than some sort of divine message being cryptically delivered through His image in a plume of smoke, a cloud in the sky or on a grilled cheese sandwich.
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C Elegans
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Post by C Elegans »

@HLD: LOL :D "Faces in the smoke" is a typical "hidden messages" phenomena; hidden messages can be found either randomly like in "The bible code" or by people projecting their own imagination in a vague stimuli. Some people like overinterpretation more than others, and some people may have an involontary tendency to overinterpret ambigous stimuli. The latter is often called "overattribution" in psychology/psychiatry, and in its' pathological form it is called "referetial ideas".
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Post by moltovir »

[QUOTE=fable]
This created quite a surprise for RCC bishops in the early Renaissance, who discovered that the Nestorian Christians of more than a thousand years earlier had actually escaped to several of the Indian countries and established a thriving community, there. :D [/QUOTE]


This is very interesting. Was that society totally cut off from other Christian countries? If so, how did their religious believes evolve in that timespan, compared to "mainstream" European christianity?
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Post by fable »

[QUOTE=moltovir]This is very interesting. Was that society totally cut off from other Christian countries? If so, how did their religious believes evolve in that timespan, compared to "mainstream" European christianity?[/QUOTE]

Nestorianism was cut off, but that caused an enclave phenomenon that's well known to anthropologists. In that situation, the culture is isolated and ceases to change in certain respects. From what I've understood, no theological changes occurred, though I can't confirm this. The existence of an all-pervasive polytheistic culture probably set Nestorian dogma in stone.

Historically, the Indian states were usually welcoming to outside religions and peoples, provided they were small enough to go unnoticed (very easy to do in India) and not make political waves. For whatever reason, the Nestorians kept a low profile. They were the most prominent Christian sect in India, before the Jesuits showed up.

On a related note, the Jesuits were at first delighted with their missionary efforts in India among its polytheistic peoples. There were glowing letters written back to the Pope about the sheer number of conversions. Then the Jesuits realized that the Indians were accepting Christ, Mary and several saints into their pantheons, and were suitably horrified. I've read a couple of the "Before" and "After" letters, and they're a delight. :D If I can find them, I'll post them.
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