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Holland may forbid burka's (no spam)

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Moonbiter
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Post by Moonbiter »

I KNOW it wasn't a serious question, Fable. I can't understand why the emoticon was left out when I posted the quote, but I feel deeply insulted. I strongly worship emoticons. ;)

As for the rest of it, @Faberge: I never asked for any such thing, and especially not all of THAT! :eek: :laugh: I merely posted a thread regarding a, to me, ridiculous agenda, and for once I was a bit ahead of the hungry newshounds on this forum. Trust me, it would have been posted sooner or later. But then I got a rise to such an extent that I just couldn't resist finding my can of gasoline. Hey, this is SYM, right? The place where computer roleplayers go to show that they've got something else on their minds than virtual worlds.. or? ;)

@Fable, again..:laugh: No, we've had no such thing, though we had a problem with a catholic surgeon back in the late 80s, protesting his rights to wear a crucifix, a gorgeous silver family heirloom 4 centuries old, dangling around his neck while doing open-heart surgery. :rolleyes:

My input, before I back slowly out of this thread is that common sense, without the predjudice of religion or political correctness, should be the rule. Nothing else matters.
I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde

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Malta Soron
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Post by Malta Soron »

Silur wrote:I do consider it rather impolite to be addressed by someone wearing a mask, unless it's at a masquerade. I would find it more so if it were by someone representing the government, although at times it does feel appropriate.
Hmm... I thought the idea of the burqa is (amongst else) to be polite towards you :confused:
Moonbiter wrote:My input, before I back slowly out of this thread is that common sense, without the predjudice of religion or political correctness, should be the rule. Nothing else matters.
Which common sense are we talking about then? The atheist common sense?
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Silur
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Post by Silur »

Malta Soron wrote:Hmm... I thought the idea of the burqa is (amongst else) to be polite towards you :confused:
Not really. It is "polite" in the sense that it aims to help me resist my uncontrollable urge to throw myself at defenseless women - now, how ....... patronizing is that! Still, I have to say that it does work perfectly - have never felt any urge whatsoever.

Don't misinterpret my opposition to laws being made in this regard to defending the actual phenomenon. I think it is a horrid idea and Saudi Arabia is one of the most depressing places I've ever been to. Problem is, if we start dictating how people dress, we aren't all that different, are we?
The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations David Friedman
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Sytze
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Post by Sytze »

Moonbiter wrote:Let me just end this by making it perfectly clear that I in no way support a legal ban on burquas or any other piece of clothing. In fact, I would rather loudly protest any such ridiculous decision. However, I do find the burqua and what it represents to be completely disgusting, and hope it will vanish on its own.
Silur wrote:Sign me up on this one. Also, I view a ban as contraproductive in this respect.
Really now? It is forbidden to wear a balaclava in most pubic places, so why should a burqa, which hides even more of the human body, actually be allowed? If I would put a balaclava on my head and went into the bank, I think I'm either thrown out or handcuffed within a ten second count. Why, then, should burqa's be allowed? Why, then, if certain pieces of clothing are forbidden in public places, should we allow burqa's to be worn?

Lets say you work at a town hall. You make new passports and extend drivers licences. How would you react if a women, covered in long robes, showing nothing of herself except for that centimetre of space revealing her eyes, came and asked you to extend her driver licence? You'd probably raise an eyebrow or two.

I understand there's freedom of religion and all those other liberties which are broken when a ban of burqa's is endorsed, but there are other reasons than to just annoy the Islamic population, to draw voters to a party's side, or because it suppresses women.
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Silur
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Post by Silur »

As far as I'm aware, balaclavas are not forbidden by law anywhere in Europe, but banks generally have policies that do not permit you to wear balaclavas, motorcycle helmets or similar headgear on their premises. My guess is they would stop you in those airlock things that are getting popular.

At least here, I doubt you would get arrested unless you actually did something illegal, like, for instance, try to rob the bank. Someone might even press the alarm when they spot you, but legally they have little to stand on.
The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations David Friedman
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Malta Soron
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Post by Malta Soron »

Aren't women wearing a burqa supposed not to come out of the house anyway? :p

Seriously: wouldn't it be reasonable to say that if someone wants to wear a burqa (or a similar piece of cloth), that person is excluded from certain activities, like working for the government or car driving, because those would require to show your face to other people?
Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it.
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CM
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Post by CM »

Bah I lost my entire post. It was bloody long as well so quick recap.

1. Dragonlady
FGM is not a muslim practice. You can quote some schmuck in Indonesia on the matter saying yes it. I can quote Amnesty International and Human Rights watch saying that it is not a muslim practice. But the credibility of ones source is rather irrelevant don't you think when someone believes something to be true?

2. Coot
Adaption is most certainly necessary when you migrate to a new country. However that does not mean you have to accept your fundamental human rights being violated. The Burqa ban violates 4 independent human rights many of which are actually enshrined in the constitution of EU member states. The issue is not of adaption of following the laws of the land. It is whether human rights are being violated with a racist focus? The answer is yes.

Also Lebanon is as safe as anything. The fact that the French can fire back and have fired back at the Israelis is enough of a deterrent to make sure they don't send in troops every day.

3. Vicsun
I disagree. There is no such thing as moderate violation of human rights. You can not tell someone who was beaten up for being black or any other racially motivated crime that "oh sorry, this wasn't bad enough" its a moderate form of discrimination or racism.

If a human right is violated it is violated. No other option is available. One form of discrimination is equal to another because of its fundamental nature of violating your basic rights as a person.

Lady Dragonfly - I am rather confused....where do you get your information on Islam exactly? The burqa is only mandatory in Saudi Arabia. It certainly not widely practiced and there is no age requirement.

Anyway a question I have asked earlier but will ask again because nobody has answered it. I doubt anybody will answer it but I will ask it anyway:

What do you basis your assumption/opinion on when you say the Burqa is repressive?

The fundemental question one must ask is does the Burqa ban violate human rights? The answer is yes ((feel free to disagree. I can show you the legal documents and conventions which say it is)).

If it does violate human rights those in support of the burqa ban are you saying you are okay with enforcing a law which violates the human rights of a minority and discriminates against them?
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Coot
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Post by Coot »

CM wrote:Adaption is most certainly necessary when you migrate to a new country. However that does not mean you have to accept your fundamental human rights being violated. The Burqa ban violates 4 independent human rights many of which are actually enshrined in the constitution of EU member states. The issue is not of adaption of following the laws of the land. It is whether human rights are being violated with a racist focus? The answer is yes.
Being forced to wear a Burqa violates a few human rights as well. I get your point however, and I agree. So much for the great, tolerant and liberal Dutch society.
CM wrote:Also Lebanon is as safe as anything. The fact that the French can fire back and have fired back at the Israelis is enough of a deterrent to make sure they don't send in troops every day.
Very glad to hear that.
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Post by Silur »

Coot wrote:Being forced to wear a Burqa violates a few human rights as well. I get your point however, and I agree. So much for the great, tolerant and liberal Dutch society.
I find that I am much more comfortable with individuals violating human rights than with governments doing it. That doesn't mean I like it.
The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations David Friedman
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Post by Faberge »

CM wrote:I doubt anybody will answer it but I will ask it anyway:

What do you basis your assumption/opinion on when you say the Burqa is repressive?
I am not sure if I should say this but:
What kind of reply would you want?
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Post by CM »

Faberge wrote:I am not sure if I should say this but:
What kind of reply would you want?
How about an honest one?

Coot and Silur - forcing someone to wear a burqa is just as bad forcing them to take it off. The key issue is force. Saudi Arabia is a hell hole for women's rights and should be punished for it. But the problem is that Europe should never be in competition with Saudi Arabia for who violates more human rights.
For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun? - Khalil Gibran

"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill
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Post by fable »

CM wrote:Coot and Silur - forcing someone to wear a burqa is just as bad forcing them to take it off. The key issue is force. Saudi Arabia is a hell hole for women's rights and should be punished for it. But the problem is that Europe should never be in competition with Saudi Arabia for who violates more human rights.
And that's very well put.
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Coot
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Post by Coot »

CM wrote: But the problem is that Europe should never be in competition with Saudi Arabia for who violates more human rights.
And yet it is. I'm afraid things will get worse before they get better.
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Post by Faberge »

Honest?

I don’t think I am capable of answering honestly to you. I am not that good at English. I’ll probably be at the end of the day really frustrated about the amount and quality of my writing, and how many things I had to skip because of my lingual difficulties. And normally I don’t think I’d say something like what you suggested in your question, at least not so bluntly. But here it goes; burqa is a symbol of oppression. Now it is only about backing it up.

There are couple quotes from Koran that I’d like to bring up.

I’d recommend reading this first; USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts
And here is the source; USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts

Chapter 24, verses 30-31 (Look for 024.030-024.031)
Chapter 33, verse 59 (Look for 033.059)

These references and a one tradition in which the Prophet Muhammad is quoted saying; “...If the woman reaches the age of puberty, no part of her body should be seen but this – and he pointed his hands and face” are traditionally considered as the main reasons and explanations for the need and requirement of the female Muslim dress.

What I find strange is that the veil became more popular during the second Islamic century, but the veil was more of a status symbol showing how a certain family had the means to let the women stay most of their time at home and assume the protective veil. One could say that throughout the Islamic history part of the urban classes have been veiled and lived secluded lives. However, the majority of Muslims, rural and nomadic, did not wear the veil and were even allowed to go in towns unveiled. It was about this time when people started to interpret “draw their veils over their bosoms” as a requirement to cover ones hair, neck and ears.

In truth, it wasn’t until the tenth century when wearing a veil became more obligatory and other laws were set on women decreasing their liberties when compared to the earlier centuries, putting them at greater disadvantage towards men. As example; during the Mamluk’s rule in Egypt the strictness of veiling increased and the women’s rights to participate in the live outside their homes decreased. Merchants were encouraged not to trade with women, who didn’t wear appropriate clothing.

In Muslim culture and religion, there are also dress codes for men. These are not as concealing and Muslim men are only required to cover their bodies from their navels to their knees, however, most Muslim men would feel rather uncomfortable wearing shorts or showing their bare chests in public. The clothing is also required to be loose just as it is with women, so it will not reveal the figure. Based on news broadcast, the male dress doesn’t seem as obligatory. Another bomb exploded in Baghdad, news are reported by various broadcasters and around the world it is shown how Muslim men wear tight t-shirts and trousers. Of course there are still those who wear the traditional clothes, type Mecca in google image search.

When lack of human rights are reported in western media, especially when it is about the Muslim women’s disadvantaged position compared to the men’s, all faults and errors are reported and as normally pictures of those in weaker position re shown. So there is now a connection made with veil and human rights violations explaining why it is at times shun. Yet, the veil can be a human rights violation by itself too, if it is forced to wear based on government legislation or by if not wearing one, one would risk personal health.

Sometimes it is left down to Muslim women themselves to decide what kind of veil they want to wear, if they want to wear one – and that is how it should be for every single Muslim from Morocco to Indonesia. I would also prefer burqa being forgotten for good, because it limits you too much in the everyday day life. People talked before about driver’s licences, they got point, but they also forgot the fact that wearing a burqa limits the area of sight.

I guess I could now state that as far as Koran and female Muslim clothing are concerned, I’d say it is enough to cover your bosom and neck. That it is what reads in the book.
CM wrote:Coot and Silur - forcing someone to wear a burqa is just as bad forcing them to take it off. The key issue is force. Saudi Arabia is a hell hole for women's rights and should be punished for it. But the problem is that Europe should never be in competition with Saudi Arabia for who violates more human rights.
Yes, it is well put. But I wouldn’t say that the key issue is force. I’d leer towards how wearing one or not wearing one will affect your life. If approach it like that instead of considering it as a matter of force. I think something can be done. And hopefully someday people can wear hijab, al-amira or shayla just for their own religion and by their own choosing.
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Post by CM »

Excellent someone who actually uses sources. I personally prefer summarizing the surahs you have quoted.

024.030 - Men should not leer at women.
024.031 - Sets out who can see a woman without a hijab and with a hijab/burqa.

033.059 - states that women should cover up when they go out.

Simply put these three surahs you have quoted do not imply persecution or repression. Secondly more importantly they do not imply that one has to wear the burqa now does it? This points to something very important. The Burqa is not a common occurance in the islamic world.The burqa is but one method to fulfill the above quotes and the hadis and some shariah.

Now to cover some factual inaccuracies. Men do have a dress code which is just the same as women. You see when we pray men have to cover their entire body save for the face and hands. Men wear a small hat when they pray which is exactly the same as the Jewish Yamica (spelling?)) I have personally seen in my life muslims turned away from the mosque for wearing shorts. Its not an issue of discrimination rather the code by which muslims must abide by. The fact that women must cover their legs and torso is as much a rule for men. You are not allowed into a mosque wearing shorts and a t-shirt. To say that they are different standards for dress is just wrong.

Secondly could you provide a reference for your comment about nomadic dress sense and that of cities. Because the hijab was a tradition that pre-dates the advent of Islam in the Arab world. The niqab/hijab and the third variation which i don't recall were based on various different regions of the saudi peninsula.

I also wonder about the comments you make in the following paragraph:
In truth, it wasn’t until the tenth century when wearing a veil became more obligatory and other laws were set on women decreasing their liberties when compared to the earlier centuries, putting them at greater disadvantage towards men. As example; during the Mamluk’s rule in Egypt the strictness of veiling increased and the women’s rights to participate in the live outside their homes decreased. Merchants were encouraged not to trade with women, who didn’t wear appropriate clothing.
Sources would be great.

Now the rest of your post is conjecture based on personal opinion. I have a question or two before I respond at a later date. Have you lived in a muslim country? Have you lived in the Gulf by any chance or visited? The reason I ask is that

"would also prefer burqa being forgotten for good, because it limits you too much in the everyday day life. People talked before about driver’s licences, they got point, but they also forgot the fact that wearing a burqa limits the area of sight."

Comments liked that are based on personal assumption without taking into account the realities in the Arab world. You see women in Dubia drive as they do drive in Oman, Bahrain and what not. Yet they all drive with the Burqa. I have seen this with my own eyes and have had women in burqa's drive me around Sharjah.
Yes, it is well put. But I wouldn’t say that the key issue is force. I’d leer towards how wearing one or not wearing one will affect your life.


There I completely disagree and made the point in my first post. It is for the woman to decide how it affects her life or it does at all. Unless you are a muslim woman who wears a burqa you can not comment with any iota of validity that the burqa does affect the life style they choose.

Now most people would say this is absurd because it does affect it. My response to that is, you are viewing the hijab or burqa from a point of view where it is alien to you basically because you lack the understanding on how it affects the person.

What you do is place yourself in a situation and imagine the burqa on you and how that affects what you do. That is fair enough. But the difference you do not know in reality what happens. Your assumptions on it affecting your ability to interact in an environment is just that. An assumption.

More importantly it is an assumption based already on a negative premise making any conclusions made naturally biased.

Edit: The question still remains how does the burqa symbolize repression, what exactly about is repressive - facts of course please. Everybody has an opinion which serves no function really in a discussion, because if two opinions disagree that is that.
For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun? - Khalil Gibran

"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill
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Post by DesR85 »

I'm not going to comment on the relevance of the burqa since this is a very sensitive topic and one that I would very much like to avoid discussing. What I want to write here is about the actions of the politicians in writing up legislation banning the burqa.

What I've noticed is that the actions by politicians to ban the burqa is almost similar to what politicians in America and elsewhere are doing in creating legislation regarding the sale of violent videogames. Sure, the agendas for both are different but they share the same similarity: Passing legislation on something they (the politicians) have little or no understanding about the issue they want to address. If they really want to address the burqa issue, why not hold a discussion with Muslim leaders rather than laying down legislation according to their whim and fancy? It is much better to understand them rather than just simply enacting a law based on their opinions without any feedback from any respective group (especially Muslims).

I wonder whether these politicians realise that what they're doing may spark a terrible backlash on the Muslim community. The same can be said for politicians creating legislation regarding violent videogames and the backlash on the gaming community. If these politicians can't practice any common sense or have any sense of understanding on the subject matter, then I have no respect for them. One thing is clear about this whole event: You cannot force people to do something they don't want to do.

Whenever I come across news like this, the overall impression I get is how dumb some (if not most) of these politicians are when dealing with these issues. I roll up my eyes whenever I come across news like this and it makes me wonder why would they be willing to do something this irrelevant, pointless and stupid. Sorry for going off-topic in some parts of the post but I just want to draw some similarities between the two issues.

P.S. Say, that is a good quote from Sir Winston Churchill, CM. :)
''They say truth is the first casualty of war. But who defines what's true? Truth is just a matter of perspective. The duty of every soldier is to protect the innocent, and sometimes that means preserving the lie of good and evil, that war isn't just natural selection played out on a grand scale. The only truth I found is that the world we live in is a giant tinderbox. All it takes...is someone to light the match" - Captain Price
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Post by Silur »

DesR85 wrote:I wonder whether these politicians realise that what they're doing may spark a terrible backlash on the Muslim community.
The thing is they don't care. For them, this is an exercise in math. If (A = group being picked on + B = group that would stand up for A) < (C = group that doesn't like A) then pick on A. Whatever a politician believes will increase the number of votes in his favour, is his or her most likely course of action. In this case A is people who wear or require that you wear Burka, B is parts of the muslim community and intellectuals (pinko communists) and C is the xenophobic masses. Luckily, in this case it was a miscalculation.
The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations David Friedman
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