"Ooooh....Shiny Ones!"

[dragon wench]

Sorry... I just could not resist using a line from my favourite game ever, especially given the context of this thread, which is something of a rant.

This weekend I bought and installed Neverwinter Nights Diamond Edition. I had been playing Morrowind for a long time, and I have to say... it is such a huge relief to be able to play a game at full graphic capability without it stuttering, slowing and grinding to a halt approximately every 30 minutes. Not to mention the wonderful lack of FPS problems, and exhaustive load times.

Now, granted, I run a lot of (in my opinion, necessary) mods in order to make MW interesting to play. But, even before I started to install mods I found the game ran slowly on my machine.

Clearly, the graphics of Morrowind are more attractive than those of NWN, but are they truly necessary? I mean, MW and NWN came out at approximately the same time. My computer runs the latter flawlessly at the highest settings, I can't say the same for MW.

What on earth was Bethesda thinking? And what kind of machine were they testing Morrowind on during game creation? When you consider that even really high end computers had trouble with Morrowind when it came out, and players had to tweak the .ini file (amongst other things), it just boggles the mind....

To my mind there is something seriously wrong with this. Why should gamers who have bought a computer within two years of a title coming out be required to go out and purchase a new machine simply to display pretty graphics? And how many actually do?
Though admittedly, I'm a hard sell, and even if I had the cash, I would flatly refuse to run off and buy a new computer just to play a game, especially if the one I had was less than two years old.

While I'm talking here about Morrowind and Neverwinter Nights, to bring this into the present, I strongly suspect that we'll see similar comparisons drawn between NWN 2 and Oblivion.

Sure, shiny graphics are very nice, but to me they are, at most, a tertiary priority.

But, Bethsoft is not the only gaming company guilty of excessive, resource hogging publications, Gothic 3 looks like it will be taxing on many systems as well. And, no doubt there are more...

I don't have a problem with the fact that technology changes, and that gaming graphics change with it and because of it. But, I do have a problem with the fact that companies such as Bethesda feel the need to cater to those with the very best machines available.

I hope it is not just me who feels so frustrated with this issue...
And, I also hope it isn't just me who does not *need* to have pretty graphics for enjoyable game play. If the story is immersive and well written, my imagination can fill in the blanks. I don't need to be able to see the inner nose hairs of the monsters I'm fighting in order to get excited about a game.

Thoughts on any of the above?

[Magrus]

Oh I agree, I bought Morrowind when it first came out. It was the first PC game that I bought which as actually new, and not a few years old when I had bought it. It was also the game that I learned to check the system requirements for a PC game. Being used to console games, where so long as you bought the proper cartidge/disc type for the console you own you were fine to play it. Genesis went with Genesis, Playstation with Playstation, Nintendo with Nintendo, etc. It was simple.

With a PC game, you need to go to the store with a list of what your computer is made up of, and match it to the requirements on the box. Which is far more complicated than matching the title on the casing of your console to the little logo on the box of the game you want. I couldn't play Morrowind for over a year, as I had to then save up money to buy my own computer, one good enough to run it.

I would MUCH rather have a game that was bug-free, well designed and programmed, with a good story and good gameplay over one that is "pretty". I know that with this machine, I can run most games that are out now if I got a better graphics card. However, I really couldn't care less about the graphics. I am perfectly fine with 8, 16 and 32 bit graphics. I do not want to have to go purchase a $250 graphics card every year in order to run the games I want. That is simply ridiculous.

The argument that you have to purchase a new console every few years is a lame one too. That $250 graphics card needs to be matched with the new motherboard, processor and RAM sticks, with the possibility of a new sound card as well, and the cost of labor to have someone who knows how to rebuild your computer Not everyone who owns a computer knows the hot spots to go find discount computer parts, or the skill to put the new parts into their computer without breaking it. However, nearly everyone can open a box, and hook up three cords between an outlet, a console and the televison.

I would far rather get new games that have the same graphics as an option. Games with new content, plots, etc but with the same graphics so I can keep running new games on the system that works perfectly fine for me in every aspect of my daily life. I in no way need a 256 mb video card to run Excel or to view a webpage. WHy should I have to go purchase one to run the new game I wish to play?

[Bloodstalker]

Game designers are like engineers, they have no concept of practicality. They just make stuff because they can without even thinking if anyone will be able to either run the game, or in an engineer''s case, be able to recharge the refrigerant in his car without having an arm that has seven joints and an eyeball in his knuckle.

[DesR85]

Now, granted, I run a lot of (in my opinion, necessary) mods in order to make MW interesting to play. But, even before I started to install mods I found the game ran slowly on my machine.

Clearly, the graphics of Morrowind are more attractive than those of NWN, but are they truly necessary? I mean, MW and NWN came out at approximately the same time. My computer runs the latter flawlessly at the highest settings, I can't say the same for MW.

What on earth was Bethesda thinking? And what kind of machine were they testing Morrowind on during game creation? When you consider that even really high end computers had trouble with Morrowind when it came out, and players had to tweak the .ini file (amongst other things), it just boggles the mind....

When Morrowind was released, I still had my Pentium 2 machine so I didn't really thought much about the game at that time. Didn't know it had the very same problem as Oblivion where not even any high-end computer was able to run that game at decent frame rates, especially at parts of the game where there are dense forests. I also wondered as to what kind machine was Bethseda using when developing those games.

There are other high-end games that taxes the computer such as FEAR (First Encounter Assault Recon) but that game isn't really that taxing compared to Oblivion. Even I was able to play that game at decent frame rates and graphics compared to Oblivion where I can't even get any decent playing experience at all.

But, Bethsoft is not the only gaming company guilty of excessive, resource hogging publications, Gothic 3 looks like it will be taxing on many systems as well. And, no doubt there are more...

Agreed and it is likely they (most developers) will continue to do so.

I don't have a problem with the fact that technology changes, and that gaming graphics change with it and because of it. But, I do have a problem with the fact that companies such as Bethesda feel the need to cater to those with the very best machines available.

I agree. In reality, not everyone have high-end machines out there. Most will have machines that are only able to scrape through the minimum system requirements or in between the minimum and recommended system requirements found in most games.

The only few game developers that I have great respect for is Valve Software for creating the Source Engine that works on almost all types of computers, especially the older Pentium 3 or 4 series. Also, the game still looks great even when you're playing in low or high configuration. Same goes for id Software for creating a graphics engine that looks great even on low and high settings. I respect game developers like these. Sadly, very few developers followed their example.

Valve Software even went further and polled those who played Half-Life 2 (can't remember where I found the poll, sorry) a while back and the results are that the majority of people have machines at the Pentium 4 2.0-2.8 GHz range, 512MB RAM, graphics card somewhere between the Geforce FX and 6 series, ATi 9 and X series as well (both low-end versions). These results proved that many people don't have high-end configurations. I wonder why no other developer ever considered doing what Valve did when developing new games.

[dragon wench]

I also wondered as to what kind machine was Bethseda using when developing those games.

In my more conspiracy theory-prone moments I figure they get advances on the top of the line machines that have not yet even hit the market.... And then, of course, everyone goes running off to buy new computers in order to play the games that actually require them... So the computer industry wins and the gaming industry wins... a nice cozy relationship..

But, that is pure and fanciful speculation on my part

[Lady Dragonfly]

Well, technology is moving forward whether we like it or not.
Computers are getting less and less expensive but a good gaming beast would still cost thousands. It is easy to get frustrated if one can't afford (or refuse to upgrade "in protest") a better one.
But isn't it the same with many other things? With cars, for example? The gaming computer or the latest console is a sort of luxury.
We don't blame Ferrari for making cars we can't afford. Well, you get my point. :mischief:

The shiny graphics is not my priority when I buy a game, but it doesn't hurt my game experience either. If I have to choose between a good game with mediocre graphics and a good game with superior graphics, I don't know about you, guys, but I choose the latter. I would not buy a game just because of the graphics, it is moronic.

Talking about Oblivion and the question "how many people have bought it, here is what Bethesda said in April:

"In North America, Oblivion has become the fastest selling game released on the Xbox 360. The NPD Group Inc reports Oblivion PC as the best selling PC game, while the Oblivion Collectors Edition is ranked number 2. NPD reports that Oblivion represented approximately 13% of all PC game sales in the first week of its release, more than four times the sales volume of the next best selling title. (The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind®, the highly-regarded predecessor to Oblivion, remains one of the top 25 best selling PC games nearly four years after its release, according to NPD). European results have been similarly strong with Oblivion quickly becoming ranked the number one selling title in the UK, Germany and France.

Oblivion has earned high praise and awards from publications around the world. Official Xbox Magazine (US) gave Oblivion a 9.5 out of 10 and an Editor's Choice award, calling Oblivion "An Absolute Masterpiece." PC Gamer (US) awarded it an Editor's Choice Award and a score of 95%, calling it "a classic" and "one of the best RPGs ever made." And the largest circulation gaming magazine in the world, Game Informer, gave Oblivion 9.5 out of 10 and said, "The bar for the next generation of RPGs has just been set."

[galraen]

Wow, people after my own heart, well apart from Lady Dragonfly maybe. Style over content, you can keep it, give me a game with reasonable graphics over a pretty but dull game anyday.

Personally after upgrading my memory to 256MB I never had many problems with Morrowind, apart from the intermittent inherent instability of course. After playing with Oblivion for about a month, I went back to Morrowind to check to see if my memory was playing tricks on me, it wasn't. Morrowind might not be quite as pretty as Oblivion, but it beats it hands down on playability and content.

So, I'm one of the numerous people who have contributed to the sales success of Oblivion, bought it automatically on the back of Daggerfall and Morrowind. I won't be buying TES 5 automatically though, once bitten twice shy.

[cyndric]

If it wasn't for all the great mods and community content, I would just buy these games for 360, the gap is shrinking between the PC and console very quickly.

[BlueSky]

I had run an old rebuilt machine for years, knew when I bought KOTOR that my old baby would not run it, so I ran out and bought parts and did a complete overhaul of my computer to be able to handle it. Then got hooked on Morrowind on Xbox and ran out and bought it. To my dismay, had a few problems, but being the geek I am, I was able to up my RAM and a few other tweaks, and haven't had any real problems since then. But I'm one of those people that wait to buy "new" games after they are a couple of years old, mainly to see if all the bugs are worked out, to see reviews of the games, and to see the mods available, then I make my move to buy. And usually by then the prices have dropped or am able to pick up a good used copy.

[Kipi]

Companies will only make games that profit. And as it seems that shiny games are more popular than not so shiny ones with better gameplay/story, developers will but their effort to shiny ones.

I don't like shiny games too much, mostly because my computer isn't capable of running them. And in truth I don't care, as older games thends to be much better in terms of story and gameplay, for instance. Anyone ever played ADOM? Exellent prove that even game such as ASCII games can be very good and addictive if done correctly.

I too belong to that group which buy new games only after those has been year or two in sale already. That ensures better access to patches and fixes as well as help to solve different problems you may encounter while playing. Also, my computer is more likely able to run the game then.

[Faerun]

Sorry... I just could not resist using a line from my favourite game ever, especially given the context of this thread, which is something of a rant.

This weekend I bought and installed Neverwinter Nights Diamond Edition. I had been playing Morrowind for a long time, and I have to say... it is such a huge relief to be able to play a game at full graphic capability without it stuttering, slowing and grinding to a halt approximately every 30 minutes. Not to mention the wonderful lack of FPS problems, and exhaustive load times.

Now, granted, I run a lot of (in my opinion, necessary) mods in order to make MW interesting to play. But, even before I started to install mods I found the game ran slowly on my machine.

Clearly, the graphics of Morrowind are more attractive than those of NWN, but are they truly necessary? I mean, MW and NWN came out at approximately the same time. My computer runs the latter flawlessly at the highest settings, I can't say the same for MW.

What on earth was Bethesda thinking? And what kind of machine were they testing Morrowind on during game creation? When you consider that even really high end computers had trouble with Morrowind when it came out, and players had to tweak the .ini file (amongst other things), it just boggles the mind....

To my mind there is something seriously wrong with this. Why should gamers who have bought a computer within two years of a title coming out be required to go out and purchase a new machine simply to display pretty graphics? And how many actually do?
Though admittedly, I'm a hard sell, and even if I had the cash, I would flatly refuse to run off and buy a new computer just to play a game, especially if the one I had was less than two years old.

While I'm talking here about Morrowind and Neverwinter Nights, to bring this into the present, I strongly suspect that we'll see similar comparisons drawn between NWN 2 and Oblivion.

Sure, shiny graphics are very nice, but to me they are, at most, a tertiary priority.

But, Bethsoft is not the only gaming company guilty of excessive, resource hogging publications, Gothic 3 looks like it will be taxing on many systems as well. And, no doubt there are more...

I don't have a problem with the fact that technology changes, and that gaming graphics change with it and because of it. But, I do have a problem with the fact that companies such as Bethesda feel the need to cater to those with the very best machines available.

I hope it is not just me who feels so frustrated with this issue...
And, I also hope it isn't just me who does not *need* to have pretty graphics for enjoyable game play. If the story is immersive and well written, my imagination can fill in the blanks. I don't need to be able to see the inner nose hairs of the monsters I'm fighting in order to get excited about a game.

Thoughts on any of the above?

You're my hero.

[galraen]

And as it seems that shiny games are more popular than not so shiny ones with better gameplay/story, developers will but their effort to shiny ones.

I think that is a very false assumption, by the developers, not you Kipi. Did Morrowind have lousy sales figures? Did BGII Shadows of Amn? The answer to both is a resounding NO. So what did they base their assumption on? Why did Bethseda risk it's reputation by dumbing down their game engine, They've certainly lost some customers by doing that, me for one. OK I bought Oblivion on the strength of Morrowind, but will not be buying the expansion, whereas I bought both Tribunal and Bloodmoon. Also I will wait to see what any future Beth games are like before buying, and not rushing out to get it ASAP as I did with Oblivion. Once bitten twice shy!

With the AD&D licensed games that came after SOA/TOB the story was slightly different, although the route cause was the same. The game developers were confronted with the problem that they could only get the licence to make the AD&D games if they used the Third Edition (or Turd Edition as I call it) rules. AD&D was dumbed down, and so all the video games had to be too.

So again, why? It seems that the powers that made the decisions decided that A) Only kids play games, and B) Kids are dumb; totally wrong on both counts, well OK some kids are dumb, but most aren't.

Unfortunately, the companies involved only seem to care about making a fast buck now, and couldn't care less about future profitability. Judging by the two fingered (one fingered if you're American) responce that Bethseda have given to people complaining on their forums, they certainly don;t give a fig, their attitude is 'Weve got your money, Oblivion has made us lots of money, we're laughing all the way to the bank, so TS'.