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Perception of beauty.

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Magrus
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Post by Magrus »

dragon wench wrote:But just because such women dress in that way does not, I repeat, not always or necesssarily imply that they want to be looked at. Let's remember, as you yourself have implied, all too often boys are raised by their fathers, and society more generally, to believe that women put themselves on display expressly for their viewing pleasure.
And this is the exact same attitude that frequently leads to the defense of "She wanted it," in rape trials.
*nods* However, as I mentioned, once the woman steps into public, the intent is no longer relevant. I wasn't mentioning that as my point of view, but as what happens. If you go out into public, regardless of what your original intent is, everything on display about you is now a public issue. Your personal thoughts are not, as you have them inside your head. If you blurt them out in public however, you have now included everyone within hearing range, yes? People will react, as humans are social creatures. Just as if you show your breasts in a low cut shirt, people do not have the right to touch you, but they will react. It is being put out in public view.

I know damn well if I walk outside in a speedo, people will stare. So I do not do so. Yet, I see girls wandering around in bikinis when it isn't even hot enough out to warrent needing such skimpy outfits for comfort purposes, nor is it near water for swimming. This is clearly some sort of action which the girl is trying to attract attention to her body or show off in some manner don't you think? Whether it is to show up other girls or draw attention from boys isn't clear unless someone paints a sign on the girl. Other girls get jealous, and boys get horny. It doesn't matter what the intent was, the reactions occur just the same. Even if the girl says "Oh, I'm doing it to make boys drool", other girls will still end up feeling a variety of possible emotions like jealousy, insecurity or anger at the situation. Just as if the girl was doing so simply to instill those emotions and couldn't care less about what the boys thought.

The stimuli is there, and reactions will occur, intent is irrevelant in causing those reactions. It does matter in how the person acts on the initial reactions they have however. Which leads to your concern, that of girls being raped and hurt and the like. Those are extreme situations though, just as a guy drinking himself to death in a drinking contest. Or a person owning a car and people being run over by those who drive cars. It's not the rule, it's the extreme, uncommon event. Natural instinct assures that if a person shows off their bodies in a seductive manner another person witnessing it will have a reaction to it. The impulses and reactions involved in stimuli involving scent and visuals when dealing with such things are far different than those when dealing with your example of men drinking themselves stupid, wouldn't you agree?
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Obsidian
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Post by Obsidian »

@ Craig, you seperate them by how attracted to them you are at first glance.

Style of clothing and hair plays as much a part as physical appearance.
For example, I have a strange attraction to the Goth style. No idea why. Not my style at all, I'm a soldier applying for medicine who drinks scotch and plays poker. I have nothing in common with the goth scene, but I find goth girls alluring.


@DW I see your point about women dressing for women, in as much as some times I wear a nice suit and tie because it makes me feel good because I look good. I don't want the attention of every women I meet in a restuarant, because, well, when I take my parents out for the anniversery dinner and I get hit on by the table next to us, its akward.

But I think if a women dresses to please herself, she is also hoping the RIGHT guy will take notice (or girl, I'm not one to judge). Just no every swinging cod that walks on by.
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Magrus
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Post by Magrus »

Obsidian wrote:Style of clothing and hair plays as much a part as physical appearance. For example, I have a strange attraction to the Goth style. No idea why. Not my style at all, I'm a soldier applying for medicine who drinks scotch and plays poker. I have nothing in common with the goth scene, but I find goth girls alluring.
I take it is the typical personality of the people who dress in that manner that you like then?
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"Oh, so I can crate you and hide you in the warehouse at the end of Raiders?"
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Post by Obsidian »

@ Mag

only one I ever dated when crazy, broke my heart and melted the necklace I gave her.

Seriously.
So I doubt it.
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Post by Craig »

Obsidian wrote:@ Craig, you seperate them by how attracted to them you are at first glance.

Style of clothing and hair plays as much a part as physical appearance.
For example, I have a strange attraction to the Goth style. No idea why. Not my style at all, I'm a soldier applying for medicine who drinks scotch and plays poker. I have nothing in common with the goth scene, but I find goth girls alluring.

I agree on both parts :)
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Magrus
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Post by Magrus »

Obsidian wrote:@ Mag

only one I ever dated when crazy, broke my heart and melted the necklace I gave her.

Seriously.
So I doubt it.
:laugh: Sorry, but I know the type. I don't doubt it. So it would be just the look and style then, even though that isn't your own? It isn't that strange I don't think. I've dated hippies, classy girls, goth girls, whatever. I don't fit in with any of those styles of dress. However, they all looked good in their chosen style of dress, thus attracting me physically.
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"Oh, so I can crate you and hide you in the warehouse at the end of Raiders?"
"So funny, kiss me funny boy!" / *Sprays mace* " I know, I know, bad for the ozone"
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Post by Mr_Snow »

One thing I didn't like about the "adjustment" made to her was the raising of her head via photoshop, I instantly put into my mind the practice some african tribes have of lengthening the neck with rings in some distorted view that it made the woman look better.
Hopefully that will never take off as a fashion (lengthening the neck).

And for split seconds some of the photoshopping make her look very wierd, especially when they were "adjusting" her eyes, way too elf like there for a second.

I do agree with the purpose of the ad that modern day glamour creates a false image of beauty, in both the sexes. But the length some people go to can also make them look like wreaks. There's a fine line between beauty and "what hell is that?"

As an aside, there's also a vid on there where they take a good looking bloke and turn him into a fat slob using the same techniques in the same style.
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Post by Obsidian »

Perhaps it is merely that confidence is attractive, and the goth crowd doesn't give a damn whether or not I think they look good. They think they look good.
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Post by Magrus »

Obsidian wrote:Perhaps it is merely that confidence is attractive, and the goth crowd doesn't give a damn whether or not I think they look good. They think they look good.
I think this is part of the reason I have ended up dating some extremely attractive women. I'm not all that attractive myself, but I know my worth. I avoid things that I know I won't do well at. Not only to save myself the effort in something I know I won't be good at, but so I don't look like a fool in front of others as well. By doing what I am good at, being confident and being myself, I have noticed people tend to be attracted to me in a variety of ways. Whether it be wanting friendship or something more. I don't bother with expensive clothes, or trying on various outfits and hair-do's and all of that stuff to look good. I just throw something on, go out and if I look weird, who the hell cares? I happen to be comfortable, and that works for me. :p
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"Oh, so I can crate you and hide you in the warehouse at the end of Raiders?"
"So funny, kiss me funny boy!" / *Sprays mace* " I know, I know, bad for the ozone"
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Post by Obsidian »

Haha mag, I think you and I walk a similar path.

But I do wear nice clothes, because I like it.

Confidence is undeniably attractive in anyone. I find that a lot of attractive girls always put up with sleezy guys who are good looking and know it, and find us normal guys who still have the confidence to walk across the bar and talk to them refreshing.

But back to the perception of beauty, it is merely a perception, and I think we have to divide the perception of sex appeal, attrativeness and beauty. Beauty is multi faceted, like a jewel, and sex is just the shinniest part. Turn the shiney bauble over and you can find out its quartz.
See the dusty crag and turn it over to find a diamond in the rough.
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So I just stood and listened.
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Post by Magrus »

Heh, maybe, all I know is that I have fun doing what I do most of the time. :p

I do wear "nice clothes" occassionally. I have been told I look damn good in them too. I hate wearing them though, so I don't do so often. They make me feel uncomfortable, I am always worried about ruining them. It is rare that I have the urge to dress in good clothes, and generally save them for job interviews or things like that.

However, I should note that I never just go out hunting for a girlfriend. It's not my way, and I don't put on a different face when attempting to find a date either. It is my personal view that if I am going to invest time into finding a girl and dating her, she should know me. I let the girl see me for who I am right off. This confuses most everyone close to me, but I'd rather not waste time pretending to be someone I am not for 6 months, realize I like the girl, then start being myself and have her just take off for it. Better I get the "yes" or "no" out of the way within the first night I think. If it's clothes and fashion that do it for the girl, I want nothing to do with her. I went down that road before, and money ends up a key thing in the person's mind rather than anything else in a partner.
"You can do whatever you want to me."
"Oh, so I can crate you and hide you in the warehouse at the end of Raiders?"
"So funny, kiss me funny boy!" / *Sprays mace* " I know, I know, bad for the ozone"
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Post by kathycf »

Hi there.

I am pretty new here, and just discovered that this site has a general chat area. (oops). :o

I thought the initial video was interesting. This is another example of a photo retouching:

brian dilg photography :: retouching

If you hold your mouse over the photograph is shows the original version of the photo. Heidi Klum's figure changed a bit after the birth of her child (I think she might even have two children, not really sure) and I thought it was funny as well as a bit sad that her chest was hoisted up in the retouched version. There were some interesting points made in previous posts in this thread, I want to comment on some of them, but I don't have time right now. See you later... :) :)
his supply of the milk of human kindness is plainly short by several gallons
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Post by Vicsun »

I see your dove evolution and raise you this.
Vicsun, I certainly agree with your assertion that you are an unpleasant person. ~Chanak

:(
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Post by kathycf »

Viewing that video makes me think that fat and/or ugly people perform a valuable function in our culture. They are the tools by which others may amuse themselves and give a boost to self esteem by establishing that whatever other faults one may possess, a slim figure or cute face mitigates. Inner beauty, integrity, compassion, wisdom. Bah, who needs it? :rolleyes:

(sorry, not meaning to seem so peevish. baaad mood.) :o
his supply of the milk of human kindness is plainly short by several gallons
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Post by Magrus »

kathycf wrote:(sorry, not meaning to seem so peevish. baaad mood.) :o
That's ok miss. This place is full of people have bad moods and take it out on others. Dig through the forum, it could take you weeks, but you might have enough to cheer you up through the end of winter there.
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"Oh, so I can crate you and hide you in the warehouse at the end of Raiders?"
"So funny, kiss me funny boy!" / *Sprays mace* " I know, I know, bad for the ozone"
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Post by Luis Antonio »

Magrus wrote:That's ok miss. This place is full of people have bad moods and take it out on others. Dig through the forum, it could take you weeks, but you might have enough to cheer you up through the end of winter there.
LMAO! Honestly, that's quite adequate. Its one of the best definitions ever! I'd use it as a siggie, but honestly, my signature is for the dead.

My perception of beauty, is that beautifull is the thing that looks like a lemmon, yet when you look at it, you can see how good is the lemmonade, after you're able to deal with the acid taste and stuff.

In other words, if you're a lemmon woman, you can still be turned into juice :p Just need to find the right consumer for yourself. "every pan has a lid" or something.
dragon wench wrote:But just because such women dress in that way does not, I repeat, not always or necesssarily imply that they want to be looked at. Let's remember, as you yourself have implied, all too often boys are raised by their fathers, and society more generally, to believe that women put themselves on display expressly for their viewing pleasure.
And this is the exact same attitude that frequently leads to the defense of "She wanted it," in rape trials.
Quite honestly, DW, she wants to be looked yes. No need to deny that: Women dress to be looked at, because that's just how men do too. People like to be looked at, and many womens, even those who get really mad when someone promounces himself about their beauty, get really happy with the compliments. OF COURSE it doesnt mean that it validates the she wanted it rape trials, but they do put themselves on display quite often. Check your avatar for example, its a nice woman. What better way to show off for the men? (j/k about the avatar)
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Post by Magrus »

Luis Antonio wrote:LMAO! Honestly, that's quite adequate. Its one of the best definitions ever!
Thank you, thank you, thank you. There is nothing quite like witnessing someone else have a hissy fit in public over something stupid to cheer you up. :p
"You can do whatever you want to me."
"Oh, so I can crate you and hide you in the warehouse at the end of Raiders?"
"So funny, kiss me funny boy!" / *Sprays mace* " I know, I know, bad for the ozone"
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Post by dragon wench »

Luis Antonio wrote: Quite honestly, DW, she wants to be looked yes. No need to deny that: Women dress to be looked at, because that's just how men do too. People like to be looked at, and many womens, even those who get really mad when someone promounces himself about their beauty, get really happy with the compliments. OF COURSE it doesnt mean that it validates the she wanted it rape trials, but they do put themselves on display quite often. Check your avatar for example, its a nice woman. What better way to show off for the men? (j/k about the avatar)
Just exactly who is any guy to say a woman wants to be looked at?
Not everyone likes to be looked at, or wants to be looked at, many actually find it intrusive. I get stared at and hit upon quite a lot. Know what? It pisses me off, REALLY pisses me off, there are actually few things that piss me off more.

As far as my avatar goes, I use it because I like her expression. Know why I like her expression? Part of it is because she is not giving a "come hither" look, she is looking into herself, not outward, she doesn't care who, or what, is around her. The avatar was a gift from a close friend, I liked it instantly and have used it ever since. I did not select it so that a bunch of guys on the internet could drool over a set of pixels. :rolleyes:
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Post by Luis Antonio »

dragon wench wrote:Just exactly who is any guy to say a woman wants to be looked at?
I have a sister, a mother, a girlfriend and many, many close girl friends. Now, saying you dress not to be looked at? Have you never dressed in hopes your dearest husband will look at you and say how nice you are? Or that your kids tell "oh mama, you look great"? C'mon, its not in the sexual sense only.
dragon wench wrote:Not everyone likes to be looked at, or wants to be looked at, many actually find it intrusive. I get stared at and hit upon quite a lot. Know what? It pisses me off, there are actually few things that piss me off more.
If you dont like to be looked at, you can use a burka. Its free expression. Also, you can go outside, using a mini skirt, and men will look and point at you because you're beautifull. If you attract people, this shouldt be a problem. Then again, looking doesnt takes a piece.
dragon wench wrote:As far as my avatar goes, I use it because I like her expression. Know why I like her expression? Part of it is because she is not giving a "come hither" look, she is looking into herself, not outward. The avatar was a gift from a close friend, I liked it instantly and have used it ever since.
Take it easy, it was just a joke!
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Post by dragon wench »

Luis Antonio wrote:I have a sister, a mother, a girlfriend and many, many close girl friends. Now, saying you dress not to be looked at? Have you never dressed in hopes your dearest husband will look at you and say how nice you are? Or that your kids tell "oh mama, you look great"? C'mon, its not in the sexual sense only.
I said "not everyone" Luis. Maybe the women you know enjoy being stared at, and that's nice for them if they do. However, I assure you there are all kinds of women who do not like to be stared at, they consider it extremely rude.
Actually, if I dress up, I do so for myself, if my partner likes it, well fine, but it's truly not the primary reason I do it. I do such things for myself, and nobody else.
If you dont like to be looked at, you can use a burka. Its free expression. Also, you can go outside, using a mini skirt, and men will look and point at you because you're beautifull. If you attract people, this shouldt be a problem. Then again, looking doesnt takes a piece.
No Luis, women should not have to wear a burka or similar garb just because the average male can't keep his eyes to himself or his organ in his pants. It's called respect!

I suppose I should qualify though... A discreet, polite glance is not so bad. Elevator looks/stares are not appropriate, not under any circumstances, period.
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
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