Perception of beauty.

[Luis Antonio]

I said "not everyone" Luis. Maybe the women you know enjoy being stared at, and that's nice for them if they do. However, I assure you there are all kinds of women who do not like to be stared at, they consider it extremely rude.
Actually, if I dress up, I do so for myself, if my partner likes it, well fine, but it's truly not the primary reason I do it. I do such things for myself, and nobody else.

Well, but I truly doubt it from my life experience.

No Luis, women should not have to wear a burka or similar garb just because the average male can't keep his eyes to himself or his organ in his pants. It's called respect!

I am not defending the burka. But that's a solution to your problem with eyes looking at you, dont you think?

Well, it so happens that instinct tells you where to look. I'm always looking at women, at work and everywhere, in fact. Every man do so. I'm the quiet kind, who looks and keeps quiet, but I still look, and I feel extremely disrespectfull from you to say that we only look because of the organ in our pants, because looking doesnt hurt, dear.

We have the right to look. As disrespectfull as it may be, we have the right to tell our opinions about what we see. We even have the right to go under arrest for it, if we think its worth it. Please, stop blaming the average male lower head, because we're not guilty for the sexual distemperances of the world. The guilt is shared.

[dragon wench]

Clearly Luis, we won't make any progress in this discussion. Let's just agree to disagree shall we?

[Luis Antonio]

Clearly Luis, we won't make any progress in this discussion. Let's just agree to disagree shall we?

Ok by me.

[kathycf]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. There is nothing quite like witnessing someone else have a hissy fit in public over something stupid to cheer you up.

I had a hissy fit? Really? w00t!

Seriously, it wasn't the person who posted the link to the video that annoyed me, it was just that the video itself annoyed me. I didn't mean to cause offense, I was simply trying to express my opinion of that video. I think that is ok, isn't it??? I sort of think that is the point of a forum, to express opinions.

I could have been much hissier btw. But then I am new here, so I guess nobody would know that.

[Magrus]

I had a hissy fit? Really? w00t!

Seriously, it wasn't the person who posted the link to the video that annoyed me, it was just that the video itself annoyed me. I didn't mean to cause offense, I was simply trying to express my opinion of that video. I think that is ok, isn't it??? I sort of think that is the point of a forum, to express opinions.

I could have been much hissier btw. But then I am new here, so I guess nobody would know that.

:laugh: I wasn't saying that you had a hissy fit. Just that it does happen. *looks above* See?

[kathycf]

We have the right to look. As disrespectfull as it may be, we have the right to tell our opinions about what we see. We even have the right to go under arrest for it, if we think its worth it. .

People have the right to look, and they have the right to think, but what they don't have the right to do is the actions that would lead to them getting arrested. Nobody has the "right" to commit a crime against another person. Just making a point, and trying to clarify a distinction.

I do agree with you that looking does not necessarily have to be sexual in nature. We tend to look at other people in our day to day travels, and that seems natural to me. People are one of the most interesting things to look at, outside of art, or the beauty of nature.

A sensitive individual can be made uncomfortable or even have hurt feelings by intrusive looks or a passing rude comment by a stranger, sure. However, even the most robust person will be hurt by having a crime commited against their person. There is a saying I heard as a kid, you "look with your eyes, not your hands."

Anway, this seems like one of those subjects that might be better dropped, so ... now I will.

And also... no offense meant and none taken.

[Tricky]

Realize that these are exactly the kind of 'perceptions' that tend to vary across different nationalities. We just don't always meet on equal grounds here on the world wide web, it is not something to get upset about.

[Gilliatt]

I don't mean to re-open a conversation that almost went out of hands, but I would like to point out that I do know some people who do not dress to be looked at. I have a friend who often puts his sweaters the wrong side and when another friend mentioned it to him he said he did not care. That friend does not have a scarf during winter because an old towel could do the same job just fine! Most people think he is a complete lunatic, but the guy is pretty intelligent, he is doing a master degree in medieval history and is a real encyclopedia. He can talk of Beowulf and D&D with the same passion.

So I believe you entirely Dragon Wench when you say you don't dress to be looked at. But I am pretty sure you would not go shopping in downtown Vancouver wearing only a bikini even though you feel like it, because you know you will be looked at.

With your permission, Dragon Wench, I would like to get back to something you said. Personally, I do look at women I find attractive. I don't stare at them, I don't eat them, I look at them in the eyes for a moment. I saddens me to learn that some women can be insulted when all I wanted to do is compliment them. This is not a disguised invitation to share the backseet of my car. If my goal was to sleep with all the beautiful women I see, I would not have time left to play Baldur's Gate. :speech:

We are all victims of prejudice. As a guy just over 6 feet tall, I have to look down when I talk to a women, and I can't count the number of times that, in the middle of a conversation, a woman wearing low-necked clothes suddenly looked at me with a shocked expression and pulled up her clothes when I had not looked there once. That is pretty insulting for me.

If you don't feel like replying and consider the subject closed, DW, I'll understand. I don't want to be annoying.

[dragon wench]

So I believe you entirely Dragon Wrench when you say you don't dress to be looked at. But I am pretty sure you would not go shopping in downtown Vancouver wearing only a bikini even though you feel like it, because you know you will be looked at.

With your permission, Dragon Wrench, I would like to get back to something you said. Personally, I do look at women I find attractive. I don't stare at them, I don't eat them, I look at them in the eyes for a moment. I saddens me to learn that some women can be insulted when all I wanted to do is compliment them. This is not a disguised invitation to share the backseet of my car. If my goal was to sleep with all the beautiful women I see, I would not have time left to play Baldur's Gate. :speech:

We are all victims of prejudice. As a guy just over 6 feet tall, I have to look down when I talk to a women, and I can't count the number of times that, in the middle of a conversation, a woman wearing low-necked clothes suddenly looked at me with a shocked expression and pulled up her clothes when I had not looked there once. That is pretty insulting for me.

If you don't feel like replying and consider the subject closed, DW, I'll understand. I don't want to be annoying.

Well no... I can't say I'd be too keen on wearing a bikini in downtown Vancouver. It rains most of the winter, so that doesn't sound pleasant. And even in the summer it is pretty cool, windy and shaded downtown, so I save that kind of thing for full sun on the beach.
Seriously, yes you are right. It is also, to some degree, a matter of propriety.

I don't mind if somebody looks at me in the eyes for a moment... As I said, a lot depends on the nature of the look. If it is discreet, and if it doesn't make me feel like immediately wanting to take a shower... I don't necessarily mind.
But.. if it is a leer, wolf whistle etc.... that I won't tolerate...

My partner is 6"4, and he has the same problem you are describing. He gets pretty upset too, so I have a clear idea of what you mean.

Also, for the record.
I probably should not have been online posting earlier today.... I had been on the phone with the vet. One of my cats is sick and they still need to do more tests.. they don't know what is wrong with her.. It could be anything from a bladder infection to cancer...I was more volatile than I needed to be. So, my apologies for lashing out like that.

[Gilliatt]

Good luck with your cat. My best friend's cat was also very sick at some point and they thought it had cancer. And guess what, my friend realized what was the problem when he saw how many leaves were missing in his mother's plants. I hope your cat's problem is as benign as this.

[The Z]

I hate to jump in but....

Humans as a species can be very superficial. If you saw a guy in a Versace suit and clean cut looks, driving in a Ferrari, your impression would be that he's a big shot. It has nothing to do with his personality as you wouldn't know him, but c'mon, we all do it, whether we like to admit it or not. But what if he was simply the valet for some extremely ritzy party? If you saw a guy in a cop uniform, you'd assume he's the good guy right? Yet there's plenty of corrupt cops in the world. Clothes have a huge impact on human perceptions.

I don't think anyone who's human at heart can tell me that they've never been swayed by the way someone looks. Now what happens after depends on the rationality of that person, as does whether this first impression sticks. But it's there.

Having experienced the said probelm and been close to it for awhile (I'm fresh outta high school), I can definitely tell you that it is far more prevalent with teenagers than it is with university students and full adults. Sometimes the clothes - lack of covering and all - will draw stares no matter what because frankly, they can be outrageous. You couldn't imagine some of the "outfits" I've seen. Sometimes it's not stares of lust, it's stares of "What the hell was she thinking wearing something that tiny". You may say such a girl has the right to dress how she wants and that's true. But when you're wearing something that leaves relatively little to the imagination at a dance, you are going to give off an impression to BOTH genders, regardless if you wanted to or not.

It's just natural.

Like I said though, what happens after depends on the person.

[Sator]

As ever true to the GB standards, a nice thread with intelligent posts in it I myself have been a victim of that mass propaganda everywhere around us these days when i was younger, and i defined beauty squarely by judging a woman's appearance and sexual appeal (the fore mentioned face/breasts/belly/legs/buttocks). But i outgrew it pretty fast, when i got some actual experience and, more importantly - seeing how certain types of girls/women are disgusting in character, no matter how good looking. As of now, my perception of female beauty is by my own creation and i care nothing for other people's opinion.

You could even catch me toning down the ego of an exceptionally self-loving female trough sarcasm and showing her that i really don't like her and will not go after her skinny arse... Drives them crazy
I must admit, i cannot have a relationship with a girl i'm not completely attracted to - i've tried it and it and it didn't work.. BUT, i get attracted by things most males would not notice in comparison with the legs/boobs/but combo..

I can give a fresh IRL example - right now i'm completely enchanted by my dance-partner, who is, by most male standards, an average on first-looks. But, after you see just how cheerful she is, how you can't stop yourself from laughing when she starts to, how energetic she is, especially when dancing.. That girl is a huge ball of positive energy, and nothing comes close to the feeling she gives me when we're dancing or when she starts giggling like mad in the morning (unlike a lot of other grumpy "morning people" )

And still, when we go to a club (we did 2 days ago), guys still try to hit on her, when they see her huge breasts and tight body and the way she moves. Does she get annoyed - yes! She goes out to have fun with friends, and is dancing because it makes her feel good, not to entertain drunk college boys. She even goes without make-up so she doesn't draw their attention.

Can she do something about it - yep! I even think she's a bit too harsh with them boys.. Last time some guy walked up to her while i was getting drinks and i saw her say something and give him a cold look. The guy looked away in shame and never returned. I actually felt sorry for him, because i used to hit on girls at clubs (successfully, believe it or not). That brings me to the other topic - guys looking at girls and drooling over them.

Ok i admit i do look, i simply adore girls. But, i take care to do it discreetly, so she doesn't feel like she's a horse for sale (But women still have a 6th sense and know it when my eyes linger on them) If the situation allows it i give her a nice smile and a straight look in the eyes. If she responds, that makes me happy, even if nothing else follows - innocent flirts like that are fun for both sides.
BUT, women look at attractive guys too! It's just that it takes a woman one quick 1sec scan to notice everything from a man's hair, trough his body, right down to his shoes. Whenever i catch one during that look she always tries to conceal it I'm no Mel Gibson/Russel Crowe, but when i put on a black T-shut and my biceps are sticking out and i'm dancing in the club i get looked at. Even by girls that are with their boyfriends. I guess that it just can't be helped by both sexes, so let's not be overly critical here

[VonDondu]

Sorry to hear about your cat, dragon wench. As you know, our cats mean a lot to both of us.

This is the first time I've looked at this thread. I'm not sensitive about this particular subject; I just didn't feel like thinking about and writing about the issue of perception. I was a Philosophy major back in college, and like Steve Martin, I learned enough about philosophy to screw me up for the rest of my life. "Perception" is too daunting for me to think about right now.

I just noticed that Luis got banned, and his last surviving message is in this thread. That doesn't look good, and I certainly wouldn't want to add fuel to the fire. I have no idea what's going on.

But after a cursory glance at some of the messages here, I remembered an old message thread in which we discussed some of the same issues being discussed here. If you go back and read it, please keep in mind that I don't really care whether men look at women or vice-versa, but there's a difference between being polite and discreet about it and being a chump. That's all I have to say about it at this time.

[Magrus]

I just noticed that Luis got banned.... I have no idea what's going on.

Nor does anyone else. Funny how that works hmm?

[xxslainxx]

I envy the man who can be shallow enough to want nothing but physical beauty.

For those of you who really understand what I mean, woe is us.