HoF Roleplaying party

Crucis · Post by **Crucis** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:52 pm

kmonster wrote:A roll of 16 is as likely as a roll of 5, a tiefling with 3 cha is therefore as alien as an aasimar with 18 cha. You'd have the perfect counterpart for your heroine.

The difference is that adventurers are supposed to be above average people, so while an 18 CHA may be rather above average for the average person in Faerun, it's probably not all that uncommon among paladins, since paladins represent such a smaller proportion of the larger population.

A human with 6 cha isn't uncommon imho, I'd give this to a shy person for exampl since shyness yields severe penalties in the social skills.

K, I take IMMENSE OFFENSE to this statement.

"Social skills" is just extrovert code language for being an extrovert!!!

"Severe penalties" is nothing more than the expression of extrovert oppression of those who are not extroverts! Would you force a black person to paint themselves white before appearing in public? THEN WHY ARE YOU SO INSULTING TO INTROVERTS!!!!

But I don't want to force my opinion on you,

And yet you powergamers try...

What are your roleplaying reasons for 14 wisdom ? 4 extra dex would make this character a lot stronger while 4 wisdom only yields a little saving throw bonus.

A fair statment. But as I pointed out in a previous post, what sort of character is this fighter really going to be? If the fighter's just going to be a plate wearing heavy tank, an 18 DEX is a lot of stat points expended that might be better used elsewhere. OTOH, if the character is going to be some sort of leather wearing, light fighter, there's plenty of reason for a higher DEX.

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:54 pm

I was thinking of dual weilding weapons. The dexterity was more for the use of a bow as I wanted her to be a good all round fighter (good in melee and in ranged combat). The levels in thief were just an idea so that she would be able to sneak up and backstab foes by surprise, but I was thinking of using this with invisibility spells rather than the hide skill. I'm not entirely sure she will be a fighter/thief though as I was considering making her just a pure fighter.

You don't need thief levels for stealth. A tiefling with 20 dex has +7 hide and +5 move silently without having spent a single point for those skills for example.
I played a character with only +2 hide and +0 move silently and she sneaked along successfully a lot.

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:14 pm

Crucis wrote: If the fighter's just going to be a plate wearing heavy tank, an 18 DEX is a lot of stat points expended that might be better used elsewhere. OTOH, if the character is going to be some sort of leather wearing, light fighter, there's plenty of reason for a higher DEX.

I'm still trying to decide what kind of fighter she will be. In my head I've envisioned her as a dual weilding warrior with little time for social skills, who speaks by the sword, yet is also more than competent with a bow or a crossbow. I've been considering a few thief levels as I imagine her to be the type who might just choose to sneak up on her opponents before launching into an assault rather than always rush in to battle with no thoughts about surprise. I'm also wondering though whether perhaps a ranger may be more suited to this type of character than a thief, but i thought a thief would get the backstabbing/sneak attack bonuses which would make the stealth approach more feasible. I was planning to have the paladin in full heavy armour but the fighter in medium armour as she will be quick and nimble in order to make full use of her skills.

The wisdom I admit was because I wanted better will saves as she isa tough character that i wanted to be hard to influence by mental attacks (i.e. the type of character that would be able to shake off all but the strongest attempts to mess with her head, purely cos of the sheer courage and lack of worry about her safety that she has).

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:39 pm

Quote:
A human with 6 cha isn't uncommon imho, I'd give this to a shy person for exampl since shyness yields severe penalties in the social skills.

K, I take IMMENSE OFFENSE to this statement.

"Social skills" is just extrovert code language for being an extrovert!!!

"Severe penalties" is nothing more than the expression of extrovert oppression of those who are not extroverts! Would you force a black person to paint themselves white before appearing in public? THEN WHY ARE YOU SO INSULTING TO INTROVERTS!!!!

I'm not insulting introverts, I just stated my opinion about the charisma values are to be translated. And I thought this opinion was quite common.
You probably remember topics about D&D real life stats where also tests were linked where you had to answer some questions to get the value.
To determine charisma you had to answer certain questions, like
- do you have more than ... good friends ?
- do you have friends of both genders ?
- do you often manage to persuade someone in a discussion ?

A shy person who has to gather the inner strength before speaking to someone usually has less friends, since talking is a prerequisite for making friends, shy people usually don't start talking with the opposite gender, shy people usually aren't very eloquent, especially if they need a lot of energy even to start a discussion.
I'm convinced shyness would even yield a bigger difference than 4 charisma points in such tests.
I use "shy" in a "being afraid of starting a conversation and having inner fear when talking to unfamiliar people" way, if it means something different for you we might just have a language problem.

IMHO the difference between us is that you can't accept low stats. In your IWD2 parties everyone has to have stats at least near average, characters with a low stat like 7 are not worthy, rubbish, crap or evil powergaming.

And I've got the feeling that you translated this into real life, citizens with 6 charisma are rubbish and therefore 6 charisma is a serious insult.

For me it's different. For me the distribution in 3d6 rolls is supposed to equal the distribution in our healthy population (I guess it's different for you). Maybe only 10 percent of the 3d6 rolls yield 6 or less, so 90 percent are more charismatic, but you can get along with anyone if you try, surely not everyone did run away screaming from the lowest charismatic member of your school class, you can translate the lowest charismatic member in a group of 20 into the lowest result of 20 3d6 rolls which is probably even lower than 6.

The world is full with low charismatic people and nearly everyone has his useful place in society. 6 charisma isn't an insult for me since I don't consider this big part of our society members as less valuable.

Sorry if I do you wrong, but that's just the impression I got.
I surely didn't want to insult introverts and I hope you understand my statement better now.
I don't understand what you want to express with "force a black person to paint themselves white before appearing in public" statement.

Siberys · Post by **Siberys** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:57 am

K, I take IMMENSE OFFENSE to this statement.

"Social skills" is just extrovert code language for being an extrovert!!!

"Severe penalties" is nothing more than the expression of extrovert oppression of those who are not extroverts! Would you force a black person to paint themselves white before appearing in public? THEN WHY ARE YOU SO INSULTING TO INTROVERTS!!!!

Umm....dude, Kmonster merely gave an example which makes perfect sense. Being shy has nothing, NOTHING to do with interracial differences. It's kind of like saying Rappers and Jocks are the charismatic people and Geeks are the uncharismatic people, which isn't true at all.

And a 6 charisma will yield penalties, just as being shy defects many social skills. This was not at all needed from you, and nowhere did it seem that Kmonster was being racist that you so imply, so please, lay off.

Jelaweb · Post by **Jelaweb** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:06 am

For me the distribution in 3d6 rolls...

Er... IWD2 does not use 3d6 rolls, but uses a quasi-point-buy system. The Dungeon Masters Book also shows 9 other methods of stat allocation. The 2 point buy systems set starting stats at 8 - just like the NWN "series". Although your arguments for probabilities in comparsion to real life are sound, the initial argument is wrong for this particular game!

Besides, mr_sir, the topic starter was concerned about a "roleplaying" party - not a powergaming party. The term "powergaming" often goes hand in hand with "stat min/maxing", so no one should be advising about minimizing stats.
On the other hand, with maxing, if we follow "true" roleplaying, no character should have more than 1 maximized stat either!

Personally, I start games as a powergamer, then move towards a more roleplaying party. Either way, I try not to minimize more than 1 stat.

-Edited by Aqua-chan

Aqua-chan · Post by **Aqua-chan** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:39 pm

Get back on topic or take this nonesense to PMs, folks. This thread does contain legitimate discussion on Icewind Dale so I am loathe to close it, but I will if flames persist.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:31 pm

A couple of posts were removed, both by myself, and another mod, earlier today in Aqua-Chan's absence. AC has already requested that this bizarre and off-topic discussion cease. If you want to continue it, start up a thread in SYM (Speak Your Miind). You'll still be expected to abide by the site owner's rules, but at least there it won't be interfering with someone else's thread.

No reply is necessary to this.

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:00 pm

Ok, this is what I've got so far. Let me know what you think and then I'll move onto my remaining 4 characters.

Female Aasimar: Paladin/Fighter (3 level Paladin then alternate between the two until 6 levels of Fighter) (will wear Heavy Armour & Shield)

Strength:16
Dexterity:10
Constitution:14
Intelligence:8
Wisdom:14
Charisma:18

After 4 levels I will increase Constitution to 15, after 8 levels I will increase Constitution to 16. From then on I will increase Strength.

All skill points will go into Diplomacy.
First 5 feats will be Heroic Inspiration, Luck of Heroes, Lightning Reflexes and then put 2 points in Long Sword (not necessarily in that order though)

Female Tiefling: Fighter/Thief or Ranger or neither? (Will dual-wield weapons and most likely wear medium armour so she can sneak up on her enemies and ambush them)

Strength:18
Dexterity:16
Constitution:18
Intelligence:10
Wisdom:10
Charisma:6

All skill points into Intimidate (and possibly Hide/Move Silently)
First 5 feats will be Ambidexterity, 2 Weapon Fighting, Cleave, Dodge and a weapon (undecided which weapons she will use - any ideas?)

I went for 10 intelligence purely for the role-playing aspect as she will need some intelligence to be able to plan ambushes and to learn all her fighting skills. She will also most likely use a bow as well as melee.

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:35 am

.

Ok, I'm a little confused - roleplaying *AND* HOF?! Sounds funny!

...sounds a little bit like starting with a cart at an formula 1 race :laugh:

...or what does roleplaying mean for you?

Btw. , no idea how the rest of your party looks like, but you first 2 builds are just dead meat IMHO!

...with no other protection than AC 40 and with even 300 HP you won't survive melee for more than a few rounds even in a "fair" head to head melee fight against one of the weaker HOF monsters!

one example for an AC 40 PC against one of the tougher enemies (Xvim Knight) with four attacks per round:

1st AB 52: 95% hit chance
2nd AB 47: 95%
3rd AB 42: 95%
4th AB 37: 70%

average damage should be about 50HP per hit if you ignore criticals (with a sure multiple damage for the first three attacks!)

so you will loose about 177 HP each round, just head to head agaisnt one Xvim Knight!!!

.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:38 am

Well, I would love for the Ftr/Pal to have a couple more points in Con from the start. Tanks get hit a LOT in IWD2. However, since you are roleplaying for a medium high Wis and high Con (edit: I meant Cha), something won't be optimal. Note that a warrior already starts with one point (proficiency) in longswords, and a second point (weapon focus) can be added at any time. A third point (specialization) cannot be added unless the character has at least four levels of fighter. If starting with 3 Pal levels and then alternating, the third point has to be the last of the five feats. The character looks fine.

For character 2, I'd try to bump the Dex at least two points (preferably four), unless you absolutely must roleplay a lower Dex. I'd wear light armor and rely on the Dex bonus for better AC. If you take a ranger, you get the Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting feats for free as long as you wear light armor or no armor, so taking ranger would save you two feats but prohibit the use of dual wielding if wearing medium armor. If this is going to be your best thief, bump Dex and take a 1:1 ratio of rogue and ranger. If this is a grunt who can sneak a little (and you have another character to disarm traps), take 3-5 rogue levels and put the rest in fighter. Put at least a few skill points in stealth skills, because the early part of the game rewards ambush tactics. If this is going to be your primary archer, increasing Dex would be quite rewarding.

There is always an attack penalty for dual wielding. The lowest possible penalty is -2/-2, and is achieved by having both Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting, and fighting with "light" weapons. I believe only weapons using the Small Blade proficiency are considered "light" weapons; therefore, daggers and/or short swords are the logical choice to dual wield.

So if you go with a Ranger/Rogue combo and use light armor, the first five feats could be: Power Attack (which is the prerequisite to Cleave, btw), Cleave, Weapon Focus: Small Blades or Bow, Dodge, and any other. I'd also recommend thinking about feats like Dash (better movement, which is nice for an ambusher), Rapid Shot (1 extra ranged attack per combat round) and Dirty Fighting (causes Slow or Blind on a critical hit if a fortitude save is failed, works with bows as well as melee). You may also wish to use a two-handed weapon part of the time - it seems a shame not to use that 18 Str to its full potential.

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:33 am

@silverdragon - roleplay to me means having each character with a set personailty and sticking with it throughout the game, while also having stats to reflect that character rather than stats aimed at powergaming.

I know its going to be tough but to be honest everyone said I'd struggle with my roleplaying party in IWD 1 + HoW on HoF mode and I'm halfway through HoW now and done everything up to the start of Dorn's Deep with them and they are coping fine - its just a matter of using tactics in the tough battles. The two characters I've listed so far are my two 'tanks' but to be honest I also intend using a lot of summons to soak up initial damage, just like I do in IWD 1. They will only enter melee combat when they need to do so. Out of the other 4 characters, one will be my main thief, and the others will be spellcasters.

@Aerich - Thanks for your input. Its helped a lot and got me thinking. I might go for Fighter/Ranger as my second character and wear light armour as you suggested. I also think I'll take your advice and I'll lower Wisdom to 10, Int to 8 and increase Dex to 20. As for the Paladin, I might lower wisdom by 2 and raise constitution by 2.

Crucis · Post by **Crucis** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:25 am

Mir_sir, if stealth is really important for character #2, then going for a higher DEX, light armor wearing build will help your stealthiness. And, if you choose to go with some sort of ranger build, the light armor will let you use the free virtual dual wielding.

But Aerich made one small error regarding dual wielding. You only need to have a light weapon in your off-hand to get the minimum AB penalties for dual wielding. You can wield a non-light 1H weapon in your main hand. The only real reason that you'd need a light weapon also in your main hand was if you intended to also use the Weapon Finesse feat that lets you use your DEX as your AB with light weapons. Weapon Finesse isn't a bad feat for uber-high DEX, dual wielding characters, particularly if their STR's aren't as high as their DEX's. But since your character #2 has such a high STR (18 STR vs 20 DEX, IIRC), weapon finesse really isn't necessary. (Weapon Finesse seems best for lowish STR, max DEX builds.)

I agree with Aerich that Dash is a very nice feat for a stealthy skirmisher style of character. When I've built this sort of character, I tend to like Dash and Dodge as early Feat choices. Ditto for rapid shot, if the character is an archer.

And there is something to be said for two-handed weapons with strong characters.

Regarding yoru PC#2's 10 INT, if you want this character to be a sort of stealthy skirmisher, an INT of 10 will work out well for you. And if you happen to choose some sort of fighter/rogue or ranger/rogue build, I'd suggest starting as a rogue for the initial burst of skill points. Except perhaps for a
wizard/rogue build, any time someone wants to have some other flavor of rouge multiclass build, I'd suggest starting as a rogue for that big initial burst of skill points that you can put into your stealthy skills, and some into Intimidate, if you're looking at a Ftr/Rogue.

Aerich, Dirty Fighting really works with ranged weapons? I never knew that. To be honest, I've rarely ever taken Dirty Fighting cuz I've always prefered feats that come into play as often as possible over those that are only used less commonly. That said, I suppose with all the thousands of atacks that your PC's make thru the course of play, there are likely many, many more chances that DF will occur that one might think at first blush.

Crucis · Post by **Crucis** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:39 am

silverdragon72 wrote:.

Ok, I'm a little confused - roleplaying *AND* HOF?! Sounds funny!

...sounds a little bit like starting with a cart at an formula 1 race :laugh:

...or what does roleplaying mean for you?

Btw. , no idea how the rest of your party looks like, but you first 2 builds are just dead meat IMHO!

...with no other protection than AC 40 and with even 300 HP you won't survive melee for more than a few rounds even in a "fair" head to head melee fight against one of the weaker HOF monsters!

(snip)

Oh, come on. You can do just fine in HOF with traditional normal mode parties. The key is to adjust your tactics.

What you're describing sounds more like trying to take on HOF with normal mode tactics. In HOF, you need to even the odds against you, since you are so often greatly outnumbered. Sending your tanks headlong in melee against the full weight of the enemy force is only a formula for failure in HOF. You do need to even the odds with a variety of tactics. Summoned allies and Will based enchantment spells that either charm/dominate or cause fear or confusion and disrupt and disperse the enemy are just some of the tactics. Magical killzones (i.e. start with immobilizing spells, then dump a bunch of multi-round damage spells into the area to kill'em slowly) are another tactic.

Sure, if these aren't your cup of tea, then you often end up narrowing your spectrum of options to various flavors of powergaming, often with highly specialized parties of spellcasters whose primary goal is to nuke the living heck out of the baddies, with or without some sort of uber high AC monk decoy.

But the fact is that it is entirely possible to play HOF with a traditional party with tanks, rogues, archers, mages, and so on. All it requires is an acceptance and understanding that the tactics that worked in normal mode will often get you killed really fast in HOF.

EDIT: Oh, and Silverdragon, the best way to deal with Slayer Knights is Holdfast Arrows. Zap'em with a holdfast arrow to stick'em in place. And if you've got any dominated monsters working for you, let them engage the SK's in melee, while you attack the SK's with ranged fire. And BTW this is a fine tactic both in NM and HOF.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:59 pm

Oops, thanks for catching the dual wielding error, Crucis.

Yes, Dirty Fighting does work with ranged weapons. For me, it's a much better feat for an archer or defensive tank than for a high Str damage dealer. A critical hit with an arrow doesn't do much damage comparative to a 2-handed weapon, so the DF effect has more importance. A character with Improved Critical has a 10% chance (2 in 20) or better of getting a critical hit roll, which is not bad. The problem with DF is the fortitude save, so the feat is less useful in HoF.

Crucis · Post by **Crucis** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:47 pm

Aerich wrote:Oops, thanks for catching the dual wielding error, Crucis.

Yes, Dirty Fighting does work with ranged weapons. For me, it's a much better feat for an archer or defensive tank than for a high Str damage dealer. A critical hit with an arrow doesn't do much damage comparative to a 2-handed weapon, so the DF effect has more importance. A character with Improved Critical has a 10% chance (2 in 20) or better of getting a critical hit roll, which is not bad. The problem with DF is the fortitude save, so the feat is less useful in HoF.

Those are good points. One reason that I've always stayed away from DF was that I felt that slowing or blinding an enemy for 5 rounds that I was only going to kill soon, probably in fewer than 5 rounds, always seemed like a bit of a wasted effort. However, your comparison of melee vs ranged relative to the usefulness of DF is a good point.

DF would indeed be a better feat, NM or HOF, were it not for the Fort save. It would seem that DF in HOF is just about entirely useless. I suppose that this is why I can live with feats like Fiendslayer or Heretic's Bane, since while having limited target groups, you know that your (measly) +1 AB/damage bonus will work all the time within that target group.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:45 pm

It seems more a "filler" feat than one aimed for.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:05 pm

It's a perfectly good feat if you aren't planning to take the character into HoF. It's really quite good for a normal game, especially if you target creatures (such as many spellcasters) that may not have high Fortitude saves. You can also cast many spells to lower an enemy's saves. It's one of my favourite feats for a character that will focus on archery. It's a good feat for monks and rogues, and it's available early in the game.

Domi_Ash · Post by **Domi_Ash** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:10 am

roleplay to me means having each character with a set personailty and sticking with it throughout the game, while also having stats to reflect that character rather than stats aimed at powergaming.

I can use more testers, and if you want to actually role-play as in interact with your party members in addition to developping them we can help one another. I was always wondering if they can hold their own in HoF, and as far as I know nobody tried them there. So, if ypou are interested, please, give me a shout at G3:

The Gibberlings Three Forums -> IWD2 NPC Project

Just a suggestion

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:56 am

Crucis wrote:Oh, come on. You can do just fine in HOF with traditional normal mode parties. The key is to adjust your tactics.

What you're describing sounds more like trying to take on HOF with normal mode tactics. In HOF, you need to even the odds against you, since you are so often greatly outnumbered. Sending your tanks headlong in melee against the full weight of the enemy force is only a formula for failure in HOF. You do need to even the odds with a variety of tactics. Summoned allies and Will based enchantment spells that either charm/dominate or cause fear or confusion and disrupt and disperse the enemy are just some of the tactics. Magical killzones (i.e. start with immobilizing spells, then dump a bunch of multi-round damage spells into the area to kill'em slowly) are another tactic.

Sure, if these aren't your cup of tea, then you often end up narrowing your spectrum of options to various flavors of powergaming, often with highly specialized parties of spellcasters whose primary goal is to nuke the living heck out of the baddies, with or without some sort of uber high AC monk decoy.

But the fact is that it is entirely possible to play HOF with a traditional party with tanks, rogues, archers, mages, and so on. All it requires is an acceptance and understanding that the tactics that worked in normal mode will often get you killed really fast in HOF.

EDIT: Oh, and Silverdragon, the best way to deal with Slayer Knights is Holdfast Arrows. Zap'em with a holdfast arrow to stick'em in place. And if you've got any dominated monsters working for you, let them engage the SK's in melee, while you attack the SK's with ranged fire. And BTW this is a fine tactic both in NM and HOF.

ok, just tell me which tactic makes a Pal / Fighter usefull in HOF?

...just for ranged combat?!

Concerning "holdfast arrows": I won't adjust my tactics on a cheesy item with just a limited availabilty!

And there enough battles you can't enter with presummoned creatures. I won't say that it's impossible to win HOF with almost any party, but I won't like to beat HOF with just summoning and running away!

.