What's wrong with society, today? (no spam)

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:31 pm

It's your thread.

I've added in the tag, but as for weeding out earlier posts, would it perhaps be better to let them stand, and move on from here? After all, you didn't have a "no spam" designation, before.

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:45 pm

In that case, as per tricky's request to stay on topic, I think that everything that's wrong and has been wrong with more or less every society that has ever existed can be boiled down to unworthy, timid ignorance. Everything else can be derived from there.

Gilliatt · Post by **Gilliatt** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:53 pm

Tricky wrote:I just want to hear what everyone has to say on society. Every good, every bad idea. I'm takin it all in.

Tricky, there is no doubt that in eastern societies individualism has grown - and also lack of responsibility. The latter troubles me. It seems it is always somebody else's fault when something happens. (In the city where I live, a drug dealer killed a policeman some weeks ago when the police came into his house for a perquisition. He said he thought they were criminals.

Every neigbour said they heard the policmen scream Police! Police! But hey, poor guy! Many journalists here are stupid enough to blame the police on that!

) We can also talk about the many parents that don't even educate their kids anymore. Aren't there schools for this?

But I believe history has some cycles, at some point, people will get tired of their individualism and we will be back to the hippies.

:laugh:

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:15 pm

fable wrote:It's your thread. I've added in the tag, but as for weeding out earlier posts, would it perhaps be better to let them stand, and move on from here? After all, you didn't have a "no spam" designation, before.

Of course. I didn't think I'd need to tag if my tone was serious enough, but it's just a given I suppose. And lastly I think I should underline that discussion wouldn't be undesirable. Just not at length and getting sharper at every corner. I'd like an open for all atmosphere in here, if that's all the same.

Ok, that's enough. Carry on.

DarthMarth · Post by **DarthMarth** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:35 pm

"It is not a man's duty, as a matter of course, to devote himself to the eradication of any, even the most enormous wrong; he may still properly have other concerns to engage him; but it is his duty, at least, to wash his hands of it, and, if he gives it no thought longer, not to give it practically his support. If I devote myself to other pursuits and contemplations, I must first see, at least, that I do not pursue them sitting upon another man's shoulders. I must get off him first, that he may pursue his contemplations too."- Thoreau

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:48 am

Vicsun wrote:In that case, as per tricky's request to stay on topic, I think that everything that's wrong and has been wrong with more or less every society that has ever existed can be boiled down to unworthy, timid ignorance. Everything else can be derived from there.

Funny - I was just about to write almost exactly the same - namely ignorance.

juggernot · Post by **juggernot** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:00 pm

In my opinion society is worse off today than it has been in the past. This is because the selfish, rich businessmen have aquired better tools to reach their target audience. Some industries that are contributing to this fall of society are : porn, fashion, diet, Smoking, etc. While the media can be used for good, it is largely at the disposal of the rich, for the purpose of advertisement. In other words, that box you watch everyday is meant to influence your thinking and change your behaviour, so that their products sell. And even if a small minority resist the advertisments, they are later sucked in. This is because everyone wants to feel they belong in society. So if society is dressing slutty and abandoning their morals and being violent, then so should I. I know this sounds like a conspiracy, but It's the simple truth. We have become enslaved to the industries through the media. This is because, in truth, almost everyone is an idiot. Very few people question the things they see, most accept them.

And for those who would argue that society has always been crappy I have a challange. If no one does anything, history will continue to repeat itself. If you are one of the few who can see this, stand up and make a difference.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:29 am

juggernot wrote:... if no one does anything, history will continue to repeat itself. If you are one of the few who can see this, stand up and make a difference.

Excellent point. I'm very annoyed by 'it's too late to do anything anyway' type of apathy, especially when people do get your point while explaining. I blame this impulse culture that taught us to always find the quickest way towards gratification. Throw money on a problem. Download porn (sorry Kate!). Instant lasagna. Following the records industry instead of taking your time to carefully find out which music complements your day.

Let's elaborate on just one. Cellphones have in my opinion too contributed to a kind of impulse variety of social networking. Why? Because I don't think the quality of our friendships has improved over the last decade. We have an easier time reaching out for each other, true. But the distance between us has increased tremendously.

So while I think that it's perfectly okay to order a pizza, I believe that I personally need be aware of the fact that it is part of a larger cultural phenomenon that doesn't want me to know that taking the long way around by making one is often much more enjoyable.

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:43 am

I agree that its not too late to do something, but that does not mean the problem has not always been there.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:57 am

mr_sir wrote:I agree that its not too late to do something, but that does not mean the problem has not always been there.

Of course it doesn't, those are separate statements. The general one I ask to everyone to draw their attention, and my own on which I elaborated just now. I'm confused, the specific issue I mentioned hasn't always been there, but the general statement of 'there is something wrong with society', is?

Fable, about those ancient Roman/Greece societies I mentioned earlier, do you happen to know which strived toward 'techne tou, biou ars vitae' (the art of living)? I'm having trouble tracking down the source in that book (which explores the work of Michel Foucault, among others). I thought that Latin quote might ring a bell in your vast historical intellect.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:58 am

juggernot wrote:In my opinion society is worse off today than it has been in the past. This is because the selfish, rich businessmen have aquired better tools to reach their target audience. Some industries that are contributing to this fall of society are : porn, fashion, diet, Smoking, etc. While the media can be used for good, it is largely at the disposal of the rich, for the purpose of advertisement. In other words, that box you watch everyday is meant to influence your thinking and change your behaviour, so that their products sell.

Actually - I'll blame the consumer much more then the producer. Afterall the producer fills a market. What they do might be immoral depending on personal perspective and belief, but if somebody is so stupid to "fall" for the lures, then in my view they are ignorant.
The teenage kids who think super skinny models are how girls look and not a fantasy .... come on get a clue. People believing Porn is real and not a fantasy sold well, once more - logical sense for the win.
Diet, Smoking etc .....
I do not know when it became a human condition to not think for one self and just go with the flow.
People say this is the age of individualism, I see very little individualism. I see lemming-ism. People doing what they get told to do in magazines, television, advertisement .... sorry, I have little sympathy outright for these people.

People should in fact start taking responsibility for themselves instead of putting the blame elsewhere.
"Media is controlled by the rich". So what if the rich own the media and they only present their side of the story - that is called having to critique sources before listening blindly to them. Besides - why do "rich people" automatically get blame, are this group of people automatically worse then poor people? Why this bias and prejudice?

In the age of yonder it was nobles and royalty who controlled "it all", before that it was warlords and might is right. There have always been an "top level" so to speak, who controlled many aspects of our lives.

juggernot wrote:<snip>
And even if a small minority resist the advertisments, they are later sucked in. This is because everyone wants to feel they belong in society. So if society is dressing slutty and abandoning their morals and being violent, then so should I. I know this sounds like a conspiracy, but It's the simple truth. We have become enslaved to the industries through the media. This is because, in truth, almost everyone is an idiot. Very few people question the things they see, most accept them.<snip>

It is not a small minority who resists advertisements - it is the sensible, logical minority.
But if advertisement worked as good as you claim, then we'd all rush out and buy stuff based solely on advertisement, and I know few people who actually do.
Advertisements are more often then not about creating brand-awareness, so that when you can't decide between buying an unknown product and a known product, you'll be more likely to buy the known brand. However, it is rare that advertisement can create a need unless it is already there, that is why many adverts no longer seem to actually be about products, or are wierd that you do not know what they advertised until the company name/product name comes up in the end. It is because it is awareness more so then information.

And even if it is only a minority who resists, then it just goes to show the ignorance of the majority more so, as if some people can resists, then others would indeed be able to.
And no -they are no "sucked in", because not everybody subscribes to this lemming-ism, in my view the ignorant does perhaps - but then we are once more back to the individual lemming following the flock without applying common sense thus going full circle back to one self.

As I said - we do not live in an age of individualism and selfishness, we live in an age of lemming-ism, where people stop thinking for themselves.

I still maintain it is ignorance which is wrong with the world.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:46 am

Xandax wrote:Actually - I'll blame the consumer much more then the producer. Afterall the producer fills a market. What they do might be immoral depending on personal perspective and belief, but if somebody is so stupid to "fall" for the lures, then in my view they are ignorant.

Which is why this is a socio/philosophical problem, exactly. I noticed the same. It is again arguably easier to blame the things that 'get you there'. Impulse?

People say this is the age of individualism, I see very little individualism. I see lemming-ism. People doing what they get told to do in magazines, television, advertisement .... sorry, I have little sympathy outright for these people.

That's true, we do flock like that. But there is no 'we' in lemmingism, no collective responsibility when something goes wrong. I read an article about differences between 3rd world and western social structures.

This British teacher joined a schooling project in an African country. In her first years she was understandably culture shocked. One student would be punished for doing something bad, and she found that the whole class would stay behind after school instead of just the one scholar. They simply naturally assumed 'oh, I had a part in that' and 'I would have done the same, so I am required to share his punishment'.

We don't know that kind of we, unless we across such a moment in a Hollywood movie. And even then we think it is 'awww special' as supposed to perfectly common.

In the age of yonder it was nobles and royalty who controlled "it all", before that it was warlords and might is right. There have always been an "top level" so to speak, who controlled many aspects of our lives.

Xandax, I have question. Hypothetically, in the light of personal change being possible, is it discouraging to see such a pattern, or does it encourage you to seek it out? Not assuming of course that you require it.

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:46 am

juggernot wrote:In my opinion society is worse off today than it has been in the past. This is because the selfish, rich businessmen have aquired better tools to reach their target audience. Some industries that are contributing to this fall of society are : porn, fashion, diet, Smoking, etc.

Well, I guess the fact that we no longer burn people accused of being witches, and don't treat a whole race of people as second-rate citizens, is completely outweighed by such modern evils as pornography, smoking, and smoking while watching pornography. Not to mention fashion which is clearly the work of the devil. I predict society will collapse within a decade.

...We have become enslaved to the industries through the media. This is because, in truth, almost everyone is an idiot. Very few people question the things they see, most accept them.

The "everyone-but-me-is-an-idiot" sentiment is disturbingly popular. I guess you could be right though, and everyone else who think that everyone but themselves are idiots are wrong.

And for those who would argue that society has always been crappy I have a challange. If no one does anything, history will continue to repeat itself. If you are one of the few who can see this, stand up and make a difference.

What do you propose I do, exactly? Protest against smokers, people with a fashion sense, and diets?

QuenGalad · Post by **QuenGalad** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:15 am

Well, pornography is a problem. I'm not going to develop on this, you guys are inteligent enough to work it out yourselves. But the point is, we are not forced to watch pornography. Sadly, some people are forced to take part in it. But no one forces the viewer. As Xandax said, the consumer is more to blame than the producer, because the consumer creates the demand. If no one smoked, there would be no billion dollar worth cigar companies. If everyone was ready to pay for ecological sources of energy, natural fabric clothes, no fur, if people flocked to see nice movies without violence, read good optimistic books etc, there would be companies that make these instead of cigars and pornography.
But if people want it that way? What then? Would any of us watch a movie about a happy couple making their way trough life without drama? We could, but we would feel stupid, and say "it's not real". Murdering Africans and beating your wife, that's real. That's human nature for you.

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:36 am

QuenGalad wrote:Well, pornography is a problem. I'm not going to develop on this, you guys are inteligent enough to work it out yourselves.

I'm not intelligent at all so you'll have to explain why it's a problem to me.

edit: I'm not even sure why pornography was brought up in a post pointing out modern society's problems. It's not exactly a new phenomenon.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:52 am

Vicsun wrote:edit: I'm not even sure why pornography was brought up in a post pointing out modern society's problems. It's not exactly a new phenomenon.

I wasn't the one who brought it up, but I used it to illustrate the impulse culture. There is a quick solution for everything, and the quick is what people usually choose. I'm not really sure yet how to tie that into ignorance though.

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:59 am

Tricky wrote:I wasn't the one who brought it up, but I used it to illustrate the impulse culture. There is a quick solution for everything, and the quick is what people usually choose. I'm not really sure yet how to tie that into ignorance though.

Pornography is a quick solution to feeling horny so it's bad? I don't get it. I mean, I agree that thinking a decision out is better than acting on impulse, but impulsiveness isn't exclusive to modern times. And I don't see how pornography ties into that either.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:11 am

Vicsun wrote:Pornography is a quick solution to feeling horny so it's bad? I don't get it. I mean, I agree that thinking a decision out is better than acting on impulse, but impulsiveness isn't exclusive to modern times. And I don't see how pornography ties into that either.

Well I'm not the one saying it is bad or good. I do believe however that we can do better than subjecting ourselves to that impulse culture (not porn in particular) I discribed. And while at least part of our personal nature and culture has been like that for the longest time, the book I'm reading now arguments that it is on the rise, and in one short chapter illustrates that Greek society as an ideal.

What's most interesting though is that it doesn't attribute that rise to technology, welfare, 'the modern times', but rather of vacuum of personal culture (personal culture, the life art in the Latin quote), that is becoming more dominant as our ancestral cultures (with for example strong religious influences) are loosing terrain.

I find the whole subject rather fascinating.

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:20 am

Vicsun wrote:I'm not intelligent at all so you'll have to explain why it's a problem to me.

If the people taking part in the pornography are doing so willingly and not because they feel they have to or because they are desperate for the money, then the only reason I can think of it being a problem is because of how it could be degrading to women who end up feeling like nothing but sex objects. It could also be a problem from a religious point of view due to the whole sinning and morality issue that religion places on it. However, saying this I know a lot of girls that enjoy pornography more than the majority of the men I know and do not find it the slightest bit degrading.

The issue of whether pornography is a problem with society is basically down to individual beliefs about morality and religious beliefs etc., and therefore some people see it as a problem, others just see it as part of life and something that has been around since the birth of mankind. Personally I feel it can be a problem due to the fact that so many women are exploited by certain men purely because they are desperate for money and are not actually doing porn because they want to do it, but feel they have to do it.

As for smoking, so what if people smoke. Yeah, its bad for you, but that is personal choice. Granted, a lot of people smoke due to peer pressure, but there are a lot of people who smoke simply because they want to. I agree with arguments that its unfair for someone to make others breath their smoke, but why would it be wrong for someone to smoke in their own home if their partner smokes too and they have no kids? Its their health and they are entitled to free will. I fail to see how this is something that is causing the problems with society

It causes problems with the health service, but not the way society thinks and acts.

For me, the problems with society come down to two things: Intolerance and, as Xandax states, ignorance. Often the two are inter-linked. These problems have always been there, they are just more obvious now due to increasing media coverage and the fact that the world is no longer as large as it used to be thanks to the fact we can just press a button on a tv or click a mouse on a pc and find out exactly what is going on all over the globe. Its not too late to try and change society, but it is near impossible cos to do so people have to want to change, and not just the odd person here and there, the majority of people would have to want to change. This is not going to happen because the human race is inherently selfish and those people that feel they have good lives and that everything is perfect in their life often don't see the point in thinking about anyone but themselves, and quite often look down on those less fortunate than themselves, such as the poorer members of society and those who are homeless. As long as there is a large number of people who only care about themselves, are ignorant and are intolerent of other peoples' beliefs, race, culture and so on, society will remain as it has been for millenia - one big mess.

juggernot · Post by **juggernot** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:50 am

viscun, I find the way you automatically dismiss what I say a little disturbing. Firstly, while there were many evils in the past societies, they never had the ability to spread throughout the entire world in as little as a day. Our advances in communication, internet, television, etc. allow for a cunning, wealthy minority to influence the behaviour of a lazy majority.

Secondly, I don't believe everyone but me is an idiot, if you read my post you'll see I never said that. I don't appreciate words being put in my mouth. That is the sign of a dirty debater.

We live in a mostly democratic world, so if ever the government is doing something you don't like, you can speak up and things can change. However, for some reason most of society is lazy, because of the age of instant gratification. Most of society is stupid, because of them being so lazy. We are in fact, quite like lemmings. This doesn't apply for all of us, but the majority.

I have nothing wrong with people who smoke, why would I? It is the fact that they are being sold their own death by people who don't give a damn. Even if you don't die from it, your health will be poor. There is absolutely nothing beneficial about smoking, which makes one wonder how they sell. This is where I think my point on the majority being stupid proves itself. How can you convince an intelligent person to start smoking? "Hey, wanna smoke? Youll be addicted instantly. You may die. You will make yourself and others sick. Oh, and it will cost you a lot of money. We have to charge you a lot because we need to make money off you before our product kills you."

The fashion industry is corrupt. The very fact that you mention 'fashion sense' proves that their illusions have spread quite far. While we worry about if what we wear is 'in' or not, others have no clothes. Clothes started out as a means to keep your body warm and to not be naked. That is what they still should be. The fashion industry tells you that in order to be popular, you must be able to fit into that skimpy outfit. The fashion industry prints labels on the ass and breasts of girls. While the fashion industry mostly victimizes girls, you can see how it works with the diet and porn industries. Girls who want to wear the 'in' fashion need to go on a diet. Guys that are aroused by the constant barrage of sexual images become addicted to porn.

Porn is in fact, one of the evils of our modern world. Anyone who watches enough of it eventually has less respect for women. We come to expect women to instantly gratify us, as the porn does. It is that urge for instant gratification, that probably leads to a lot of rape.

wether society has always been crappy isn't the point. Hopefully we have evolved far enough intellectually to create a better system.