Your personal beliefs/religion/ideology(no spam, spam tastes bad)

[Lady Dragonfly]

@captive witch

I stand corrected; unless we agree that esse is percipi. But let's not.

Indeed; let Berkeley lie.

Witches employ directed meditation, where the mind guides itself (or another acts as guide) along a path where certain features are known in advance. It could be called imagination being put at the service of the will, and some will say it is nothing but imagination. But then, if you're using it to gain more understanding of yourself, that really isn't a concern; though you need to monitor what's going on around you to make sure you stay on course. And if you're a witch, you either accept that at least a piece of what you're experiencing in your wake-sleep state has a level of reality, or you don't.

Interesting. But what is the purpose of that? This spiritual experience should accomplish something, shouldn't it? Enlightenment? It sounds like daydreaming to me. You lay relaxed and use imagination. Where is magic?

For instance, I've regularly used some form of mental displacement to reduce pain for over forty-five years, since childhood, and my early attempts to deal with chronic asthma. I see it as a spell.

I don't know what you mean by mental displacement, but I myself can mentally subdue pain, to a certain degree. When I was young, I could displace the terrible itch caused by mosquito bites (I am allergic), from one part of my skin to another, so it would gradually disappear. (It required concentration; perhaps that is why I don't attempt to do that any more... and use a lotion instead). I don't think magic has anything to do with all this, but does it matter what names we call things?

And it may be that what we consider magic and spellmaking today will at some point be recognized as legittimate mental practices--or wish fulfillment fantasies. Perhaps something of both?

I agree.

There are different ways to cast spells, dating back through recorded history to Ancient Greece: prayer (not that prayer=spell, but that some forms of prayer are spells), talismans, candle work, sex, aromas (which were once regarded as a form of magic), etc.
...Some folk magic depends on the so-called laws of contagion and similarity, the point being, not that this censor filled with incense can truly dispel evil spirits, as some priests might say, but that it could trigger sufficient power of belief to change reality in accordance with these views.

I admit that all that can greatly influence one’s mood and perception, especially if the ritual is ancient. There is something alluring in the mystery of an ancient ritual even for a skeptical mind. If the aromatic candles and mysterious chant start filling the warm darkness and everybody is wearing nothing but glittering talismans, even Xandax would gladly whisper a prayer or two.
But to trigger power to change reality? The perception of reality perhaps, but surely not reality itself?

There are also tales from many religions of holy miracle workers, Christian and Buddhist saints, Jewish tzaddikim, etc, who simply changed reality by willing it at once.

I’ve never believed in holy miracles. As a matter of fact, I've never wanted to believe in holy miracles. I think the desire to believe makes one's mind far more receptive to the mystical experience. It is the most important component of any faith. A willing participant is... well, willing to believe in a supernatural miracle, even there is none, because the "supernatural" event in question is quite natural in fact. A charismatic “prophet” can manipulate believers’ perception better than any professional prestidigitator.
It is usually said that faith does not require proof but how had any faith originated? The ancients believed literally, and viewed the material objects and events as the tangible proof of their naive beliefs. It does not work this way in a more educated society, so the roots were conveniently cast into oblivion and gallons of ink poured on paper to explain unexplainable.

My basic understanding of mysticism is that it invites to seek hidden and unseen in everything and cultivates detachment from reality. The modern witchcraft is neither religion nor philosophy but a form of escapism IMO, or a coping mechanism if you will, or a pure intellectual amusement. Am I grossly off mark?

@Cladius

The distinction concrete and abstract is created by mind.

Yes, as a way of classification when the nature of things is discussed.

Emptiness is not like an empty gas tank in this sense. It is a very poor english word for a sublime meditative realization. What it means is that objects are NOT pervaded by independent existence. IT TAKES AGES TO WEAR DOWN THIS HABIT. Instead we pursue pleasure/pain, gain/loss, praise/blame, fame/infamy although in light of emptiness this is quite funny.

Honestly, I don't understand what "sublime meditative realization" is or what you mean by "objects are not pervaded by independent existence". What are they really pervaded by, in your opinion? I understood, I think, that the sublime meditative realization is a better alternative to pursuit of fleeting gloria mundi and traditional values. Why?

The diamond sutra says "a flower is not a flower. that is why it is a flower." This means that a real flower is much greater than just your ideas about it which seem to think there is a boundary to a flower. Actually the flower includes, light, rain, wind, earth, insects, gardiners, their parents, war, education, poverty, notions of beauty, wedding ceremonies, funerals. It includes the whole universe. A unity is meant in this case and not a oneness (oneness would just be a notion impermanent, dependent, and unsatisfactory).

If you mean an image of a flower (or any other object) can trigger a multitude of associations in our mind, I have no objections. But a flower as an object is not a gardener and his parents, unless the flower grows on their shallow grave. Then one may argue that the roots absorbed nitrogen from the decomposed gardener and "became" a gardener. But in that sense we are partially pork chops.

Because Buddha knew that there were many types of people he had to give more than just one flavor of teaching.

How do we know it was Buddha? Is it impossible that people have chosen the flavor themselves, according to their own interpretation of the "divine philosophy", oral tradition, and local custom?

What is the purpose of this? To end the suffering. We feel great pain when we expect things to be other than they are. Also we suffer from attraction, aversion, and ignorance. The goal to become a buddha is not to learn an elaborate and impressive philosophy, but rather to stop suffering, help others, and tame the mind. Kindness is a good word to point toward that.

Fable addressed this already.
I think the philosophy in question is elaborate and impressive as is.

The end of slavery had many causes (not just one). Did anger cause slavery to end?

Is not it true that Buddhism teaches that to stop suffering one has to stop desiring? If a slave suffers because he desires freedom, would the problem of his suffering be solved if he stops desiring freedom? I assume it is possible he will become a content slave, but this is only a temporary solution to his problem, an adaptation mechanism.

Suffering is one of the reasons that humans have an advantage. They can become free from samsara. A god is very delighted in heaven (think metaphorically if you will). Untill the good deeds leading to ending in that realm are exhausted. Their attendants leave, their raiment fades, and they begin to age....fully knowing that they could be reborn in any karmic realm: pride, anger, jealousy, ignorance, attachment, greed; form and formless.

So, attaining Nirvana is the ultimate goal, correct?

[Claudius]

Lady Dragonfly,

I would like to explain this more clearly but I just don't know how...
I think it is like the Zen master who asked the student if they would like some tea then proceeded to pour into the students already full cup. As tea spilled onto the floor the student asked, "what are you doing?" The master says, "just as this cup your mind is already full"

Now I don't claim to be a master thats not the point. At best I could replace your conceptual understanding of reality with my own which would be unhomely. I would like to do something better and mention the starting places.

[1] the preciousness of human life and the particular good fortune of life in an environment in which you can hear the teachings of Buddhadharma;

[2] the reality of death, that it comes suddenly and without warning;

[3] the entrapment of Karma - whatever you do, whether virtuous or not, only further entraps you in the chain of cause and effect; and

[4] the intensity and inevitability of suffering for you and for all sentient beings.

This is called "taking the attitude of the four reminders"

-Chogyam Trungpa

The preliminaries are the basic meditation practice - beneficial, supportive, warm-hearted, brilliant shamatha-vipashyana practice. Shamatha-vipashyana practice is not only the earth that we stand on, it's also the air we breathe and the heart that beats inside us.

-Pema Chodron

[Lady Dragonfly]

There is my take on Buddhism, Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path. Please forgive the simplification (my knowledge is very limited, as I stated already):

World is full of suffering; suffering is caused by desires and selfishness; desires and selfishness are caused by ignorance; ignorance should be replaced with enlightenment; enlightenment can be obtained only through sublime meditative realization; a person must endure reincarnations until he is liberated from this cycle by his exemplary behavior, proper attitude, and meditation; the final destination is Nirvana; Nirvana is a happy place where suffering is ended.

[fable]

Interesting. But what is the purpose of that? This spiritual experience should accomplish something, shouldn't it? Enlightenment? It sounds like daydreaming to me. You lay relaxed and use imagination. Where is magic?

I've sketched the general procedure, but I haven't concentrated on the spiritual result because that is intensely personal, and would mean little to most people who haven't done it, themselves. How many people would take seriously hearing the spiritual experiences of, say, St. John of the Cross? His written work was intended for those who followed his path, and to others, all too frequently, they come across as silly or only intellectually interesting. So all I can say at this point is that everytime I've "walked the path" to the other side, I feel as though I've come back having learned something--sometimes about myself, and like as not, nothing I can take the slightest pride in; though sometimes, it is something else entirely, or not about myself, but about others being not-not-self. You've learned a lot by reading that, haven't you? The view's hard to describe if you don't walk the path.

As for where the magic lies, it lies in accessing a level of reality that can't be reached by the five senses. It uses the imagination, and the will (this is not undirected work), and yet these are only tools that a witch uses to reach somewhere else. I might as well ask, where's the magic in transubstantiation? You use your imagination, and of course, the priest looks splendid in his robes, but what of it?

I don't know what you mean by mental displacement, but I myself can mentally subdue pain, to a certain degree. When I was young, I could displace the terrible itch caused by mosquito bites (I am allergic), from one part of my skin to another, so it would gradually disappear. (It required concentration; perhaps that is why I don't attempt to do that any more... and use a lotion instead). I don't think magic has anything to do with all this, but does it matter what names we call things?

No, it really doesn't. When a follower of some Hindu austerities can drop their heart rate in an instant so low that it barely registers, we can call this magical, or an achievement of the body-mind that is remarkable yet understandable. That's a kind of magic, as many witches would see it. Science can observe this phenomenon, but cannot explain what exactly is going on that allows conscious manipulation of the heart muscles in such a way. If it can be observed, is it no longer magical?

As for the rest, what one does to summon creatures, or achieve other goals: how do these differ in kind from what I've just described? The activity by which they work (or don't work) is no more truly "known" by science than the practice of dropping the body's heart rate so drastically. Giving the Hindu praciticioner's activity a name, calling it psychochemical or anything else, doesn't make it any more scientific than a spell accomplished with the aid of a drawn circle, candles, and chalked-in words.

I admit that all that can greatly influence one’s mood and perception, especially if the ritual is ancient. There is something alluring in the mystery of an ancient ritual even for a skeptical mind. If the aromatic candles and mysterious chant start filling the warm darkness and everybody is wearing nothing but glittering talismans, even Xandax would gladly whisper a prayer or two.

Only if it were for a new computer. -But yes, then he might.

But to trigger power to change reality? The perception of reality perhaps, but surely not reality itself?

As I wrote previously, Crowley's definition of magic is good for getting a feel for what it does, but is otherwise too broad and hazy. Is reality each thing-in-itself? If we accept the existence of all things apparent to our senses as other than ourself and each maintaining its own existence, then magic is simply another way to attempt to influence reality--much as we might (to return to my previous analogy) wear a suit to influence a job interview. But if we can agree that spirituality reaches a level of reality that lies beyond that perceived by the five senses, then magic is a tool that can be used to reach that level--whether in the form of a mantra, or guided meditation, or mindlessness, or a ecstatic dancing, etc.

I’ve never believed in holy miracles. As a matter of fact, I've never wanted to believe in holy miracles. I think the desire to believe makes one's mind far more receptive to the mystical experience.

I don't recall ever wanting to believe in miracles, or anything extraordinary, once I got beyond the stage where I accepted Santa Claus, and patriotism, and the utter and complete orthodox truth of whatever religion my parents raised me in. I don't think there's anything extraordinary about magic, spiritual experiences, or witchcraft. I find them perfectly ordinary, as natural as breathing--well, maybe more natural than that, since I've had chronic asthma since shortly after birth. So let me rephrase that: they're as natural as the rest of perceived existence to me.

It is the most important component of any faith. A willing participant is... well, willing to believe in a supernatural miracle, even there is none, because the "supernatural" event in question is quite natural in fact. A charismatic “prophet” can manipulate believers’ perception better than any professional prestidigitator.

But if you have a broken leg before a "healing session" and it's healed afterwards, where did the healing come from? Could we say that group enthusiasm, directed by the will of a charismatic leader, has achieved the result? Or is this a case of the body being influenced by things as yet unmeasurable by science, yet akin to the Hindu holy man who reduces his heart rate? Or would you say that such a thing simply couldn't occur?

It is usually said that faith does not require proof but how had any faith originated?

Through faith. I'm not putting it that way to be glib, but because it's the simple truth. Faith originates in itself. It has no antecedents. It is not daydreams based on hope. It is a leap beyond logic, and therefore without logical interpretation or comprehension.

I misunderstood your views on religion previously. I still don't know them, but I have a better understanding of my ignorance, now. My apologies.

The ancients believed literally, and viewed the material objects and events as the tangible proof of their naive beliefs. It does not work this way in a more educated society, so the roots were conveniently cast into oblivion and gallons of ink poured on paper to explain unexplainable.

Of course the desire to understand self, existence, and the other are questions that subsume the beliefs of so-called primitive people's about the nature of lightning. Many people don't cast that into oblivion; we are more educated, but the questions remain, and remain unanswered, possibly unanswerable, by the logical mind. This doesn't invalidate the questions, or the desire to seek answers. Which, when they are found, can't be communicated except by words that go beyond logic. And that depends upon the receptivity of the listener.

[fable]

My basic understanding of mysticism is that it invites to seek hidden and unseen in everything and cultivates detachment from reality. The modern witchcraft is neither religion nor philosophy but a form of escapism IMO, or a coping mechanism if you will, or a pure intellectual amusement. Am I grossly off mark?

If you derived your opinion of witchcraft from my answers, perhaps I'm at fault, for not knowing you were seeking to evaluate the craft, and providing better answers. For one thing, there are several different kinds of witch. There's some consensus that European witchcraft as it is now derive from two paths, that of pre-Christian religious worship, and shamanistic types. Quite a few witches belong to groups that attempt revivals of worship for a particular pantheon. I don't do that, myself, though I was formerly "brought in" to the Gardnerian lineage--and Gardner's idea of a Craft-based religion, Wicca, bears no resemblance to what nearly every self-proclaimed Wicca is, today.

Or perhaps you are at fault (and I don't mean this to sound accusatory), for asking me about what spells are, and taking my general answers, in a public forum, to someone I barely know, as the limit of my knowledge, which is in turn the limit of witchcraft. But I can tell you this: what we do is not driven by intellect but by feeling, to which we harnass everything else, and that we are not detached from reality, but interact with levels of it that others don't believe exist, or at best, touch upon only briefly, without being aware of it. The craft isn't a religion, or a philosophy, but those were never its intent. The practices it employs can be utilized in a spiritual fashion--or not.

Similarly, witchcraft is only escapism when it is done in the spirit that one visits Disneyland, and that holds true for religions and philosophies, as well: they are touchstones upon which we reveal ourselves. The person who thinks they can buy a witchcraft book from Llewellyn Publications and get together with a few girlfriends and summon up power to curse the boys they don't like or maybe a teacher who is flunking one of them is in no wise different from Madonna claiming that she now follows the Jewish Kaballah, or some suburban couple going off to meditate at a Buddhist shrine for a weekend because its exotic and beautiful, and ever so good to support the environment, don't you know.

And that's only one step removed from all those weekend Christians and Jews and Muslims, etc, who go to the church-temple-ashram-whatever of their choice for the social experience, and out of an unexamined belief that if they go, when they die, they go to heaven. That is pure escapism, too.

I've been in the Craft for roughly 45 years, and was initiated into a lineage about 29 years ago. I've been in groups, I've led groups, and I've most of the time been "solitaire." To me, it definitely isn't an escape. Like an Anglican pastor says in a certain novel whose name I've forgotten, religion isn't meant to be an escape from life. It's meant to be a means of coming to grips with it, and all the hard questions. While the Craft isn't a religion to me, meaning a method of worship, it can be applied in a way that still deals with those same questions. It depends on the spirit of the person who uses it.

As for being an intellectual amusement--I wish you could experience what I feel I drink from a wine cup and experience the smell of the earth at its richest in that taste. But I can't. All the words I could use for that and everything else seem utterly benighted here in cold, hard print. I know all of this sounds absurd and crass, or at best bizarre, to probably everybody who reads it. And that's acceptable, or at any rate, more so than leaving you with the impression that the Craft is an intellectual amusement. It's not that. Not at all.

[Claudius]

Yes thats a good idea of the four noble truths, Lady Dragonfly. It is a part of the first turning of the wheel of dharma. The second turning has to do with the emptiness thing I was talking about. This becomes important when you take on the bodhisattva aspiration and engaged practice. Here you are motivated to save other beings from suffering, because you want them to be happy and delight in it. Also you want them to be free from the pain of keeping some as close and some as far: the ocean of samsara.

So you go into suffering in order to help them. It is like if you had a child who is blind and is playing in a dangerous area. You could be harmed too, but you can see how to help them. And this seeing is emptiness. Anger, greed, and ignorance are not pervaded by self. For this 1st turning of the wheel of dharma this meant that all of those stains could be removed from your mental continuum, in order to reach arhat (peaceful nirvana). Realization of emptiness takes a long time, well at least speaking for myself. I have had calm at best and that is the right direction.

Sunyata is not a vacuum or a state of nothingness. Indeed, an enlightened yogi sees the same things we do. At the same time, he or she appreciates the insubstantial and changing quality of everything, and understands that projections and perceptions can cause no harm or trouble. We, on the other hand, regard our projections as something substantial, and we believe that they support and sustain us. We think they are real; indeed, for us this is total reality. We fixate on our perceived reality and become attached to it. That is how we become trapped in our own projections.

To go beyond intellectual understanding to a spontaneous experience of sunyata is to experience the nature of the mind as dharmakaya. This state manifests as an all-pervading quality of space. When a practitioner merges his mind with the dharmakaya, he or she continues to experience everything as before, but also sees the transience of all things. He knows at that point that his mind is insubstantial and non-compounded.

Eventually, even the desire for nirvana wears out and paradoxically at that time you are liberated from the EXTREMES of peaceful nirvana (1st turning) and samsara.

There is also a 3rd turning which is the tantrayana. You need preparation and a teacher in order to practice that or you can harm yourself.

By the way this stuff is great. I am really happy for it but I don't expect everyone to have lightning confidence right away. Buddha said its hard to know the reasons for all the colors on a peacock feather. You would have to be omniscient. I hope this is interesting for you, but I encourage you that buddhism is also a non-secular message of kindness. Of course there is also a method to realize our aspirations and disentangle us from samsara.

Because everything changes from moment to moment,
we can only treasure everything in this moment.
Because everything changes from moment to moment,
we should not be attached to anything in this moment.

- stonepeace

[Lady Dragonfly]

Claudius, I will reply to your post tomorrow, OK? It is very interesting what you said.

@Fable

I am very thankful for the clarification.
I've heard about Guided Visualization, of course, and of induced trance, but I've never encountered a person who actually practiced this without a little help of drugs. Very interesting.

As for where the magic lies, it lies in accessing a level of reality that can't be reached by the five senses. It uses the imagination, and the will (this is not undirected work), and yet these are only tools that a witch uses to reach somewhere else. I might as well ask, where's the magic in transubstantiation? You use your imagination, and of course, the priest looks splendid in his robes, but what of it?

Oh, please no more transubstantiation to-day. A colleague of mine already traumatized my psyche beyond repair while "subtly" trying to convert me into Catholicism all previous month. :laugh:

There are more than five senses. Our skin, muscles, organs and vestibular apparatus located in the inner ear provide us with four more: kinesthetic (proprioception), balance (equilibrioception), heat/cold sense (thermoception), and pain (notiception). The sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system connect all receptors with the control centers in the medulla oblongata and further with the various areas of the brain cortex. The system is extremely complex and quite marvelous, yet natural.
We are talking about tools, but maybe we should first define the "spirituality" and "magic". Both are outside the material world as we know it. Spirituality means different things for different people. It might be a state of religious ecstasy, philosophical doctrine, painful soul searching of a poet, or a shaman’s communication with the departed spirits in front of the coca-consuming tribesmen. Or many other things. I totally agree that the personal spiritual experience is a very intimate thing that sometimes difficult to describe. I accept your explanation of what magic is for you as very reasonable, and I realize that there is probably more to it than you are willing to share. And I respect your privacy.

But if you have a broken leg before a "healing session" and it's healed afterwards, where did the healing come from? Could we say that group enthusiasm, directed by the will of a charismatic leader, has achieved the result? Or is this a case of the body being influenced by things as yet unmeasurable by science, yet akin to the Hindu holy man who reduces his heart rate? Or would you say that such a thing simply couldn't occur?

The effect of placebo is well-known. The effect of hypnosis is well-known. The effect of psychotherapy is well-known. The book "How to influence people..." is a national bestseller. Should I say more?

Science can observe this phenomenon, but cannot explain what exactly is going on that allows conscious manipulation of the heart muscles in such a way. If it can be observed, is it no longer magical?

Nervus Vagus (vagal nerve) is responsible for the slow heart rate. There are special vagal maneuvres that help slow heart rate quickly; they are often employed to interrupt dangerous arrhythmias, such as ventricular and supraventicular tachycardia. These maneuvers increase the vagal tone. They are easy: coughing, holding breath, bowel movement, bearing down etc.
The conditioned athletes have a very slow heart rate (bradycardia) to begin with. There is nothing miraculous about all this. Training is a key.

As to my comment about escapism and amusement, that is my general stance concerning all things mystical. I don't say that to belittle someone's personal belief system. It is my observation, however, that the practicing mysticism societies (or sects, or groups) like to present themselves as an exclusive, elitarian circle of enlightened adepts possessing a superior knowledge of something unseen, something above comprehension of other simple-minded folks. A lot of it is just a trendy drivel enshrouded in obscure terminology, including Madonna's "spiritual" exploits and girls' "pagan" worship of shrubbery.

I've been in the Craft for roughly 45 years, and was initiated into a lineage about 29 years ago. I've been in groups, I've led groups, and I've most of the time been "solitaire." To me, it definitely isn't an escape.

How many true witches are out there, I wonder? I assume at least some of the people in the groups were true? Is there any criteria that help to discern who is true and who is not?
Should we be concerned with the evil aspect of witchcraft?

And again, I truly appreciate your patience. I hope my prying was not too abusive.

[Lady Dragonfly]

@Claudius

The second turning has to do with the emptiness thing I was talking about. This becomes important when you take on the bodhisattva aspiration and engaged practice. Here you are motivated to save other beings from suffering, because you want them to be happy and delight in it. Also you want them to be free from the pain of keeping some as close and some as far: the ocean of samsara.

So you go into suffering in order to help them.

Does that mean preaching and spreading faith (knowledge), or providing direct moral guidance to the "blind" (even against their will if need be), or helping poor and oppressed as we would understand it?
I am puzzled with a seeming contradiction. On the one hand, it is indeed can be an example of a "right ethical conduct", a part of the Eightfold Path. On the other hand, a person striving to escape samsara is supposed to still his/her emotions, cleanse the mind of all passions and float into intrinsic cosmic emptiness, blissfully united with Brahman (I am not sure my understanding is correct). But instead, he experiences a desire to help others and "goes into suffering in order to help them", if that is what you mean.

[3] the entrapment of Karma - whatever you do, whether virtuous or not, only further entraps you in the chain of cause and effect;

This desire to help would condemn him, wouldn't it. How is this "clinging" desire to deliver help similar to a Christian missionary's obsessive desire to save the World by spreading the Word?

There is also a 3rd turning which is the tantrayana. You need preparation and a teacher in order to practice that or you can harm yourself.

You are probably referring to Tibetan Buddhism and their esoteric teaching that supposedly provides a shortcut to Nirvana to experienced practitioners so they can reach high levels quickly and help others without penalty (why on earth do I talk like a D@D manual? ).

I hope this is interesting for you, but I encourage you that buddhism is also a non-secular message of kindness.

It is very interesting. I have difficulty accepting monism and I am very sceptical of the eclectic New Age mysticism (they borrowed a lot from the Far Eastern culture), but I would like to know more about Buddhism. My knowledge of this culture is very superficial.

Edit: Do you believe in the hidden, supernatural powers of the mind? In something that is available only to the "chosen ones"?

[Claudius]

Does that mean preaching and spreading faith (knowledge), or providing direct moral guidance to the "blind" (even against their will if need be), or helping poor and oppressed as we would understand it?
I am puzzled with a seeming contradiction. On the one hand, it is indeed can be an example of a "right ethical conduct", a part of the Eightfold Path. On the other hand, a person striving to escape samsara is supposed to still his/her emotions, cleanse the mind of all passions and float into intrinsic cosmic emptiness, blissfully united with Brahman (I am not sure my understanding is correct). But instead, he experiences a desire to help others and "goes into suffering in order to help them", if that is what you mean.

Edit: I'm not sure what a bodhisattva experience. I have experienced kindness and I don't think that is desire. Do you?

Edit: remember pleasure is not the problem it is attachment.

It means simply helping people. You have to know how to people in order to help them and wisdom (ultimate truth) is sealed to comassion (relative truth - to appearances - karmic nature). One of the motivations to become a buddha is to help people which you find you can do only according to your ability. Also buddha can't wash away ignorance with water. He can only help a person according to their merit meaning effects come from causes and the conditions must be right. A buddha uses skillful means to orchestrate conditions. Also a buddha is not just projecting his own anger, greed, and ignorance.

This desire to help would condemn him, wouldn't it. How is this "clinging" desire to deliver help similar to a Christian missionary's obsessive desire to save the World by spreading the Word?

Paradoxically it requires desire in order to overcome desire. The ego does not exist in an ultimate sense, rather only to appearances. This is samsara. That is what we overcome. So in some sense you need only let go. You need never worry about an ego then as you don't have one and you never can achieve one. Of course in these realms of desire of which being a human is an example we have an "I" that fits into the world. More manure for the practice, I guess. You can overcome "I" by: giving, ethics, patience, effort, one-pointed concentration - samadhi, wisdom. These are not just good suggestions but they are effective due to seeing into emptiness and applying it to help end suffering (compassion).

Edit: also I forgot to mention ultimate bodhicitta. That is identical to wisdom of emptiness. Bodhicitta can be ultimate (above) or relative - compassion. Ultimate bodhicitta responds spontaneously without pumping it up with desire.

You are probably referring to Tibetan Buddhism and their esoteric teaching that supposedly provides a shortcut to Nirvana to experienced practitioners so they can reach high levels quickly and help others without penalty (why on earth do I talk like a D@D manual? ).

Tantrayana can be seen in other so called paths of buddhism. The stone guardians outside temples are a sign of it. I really don't know too much about it although I am learning some preliminaries. Learning about my own views on the heart and mind nature.

It is very interesting. I have difficulty accepting monism and I am very sceptical of the eclectic New Age mysticism (they borrowed a lot from the Far Eastern culture), but I would like to know more about Buddhism. My knowledge of this culture is very superficial.

You might find the philosophy of buddhism remarkable. It is a non-absolute doctrine yet the brand of relativism includes a well developed ethics based on karma.

Edit: Do you believe in the hidden, supernatural powers of the mind? In something that is available only to the "chosen ones"?

I don't believe in what you have said. The powers are perhaps hidden by habitual thinking. If you had them wouldn't they seem ordinary to you? Plus anyone can become a buddha so no one choose you. You have to uncover your buddha nature despite obstacles. Actually the powers could become an obstruction if you are attached to them. A lot of buddhists have various experiences while meditating ranging from feeling waves of love to simply seeing flashes of light. I read a guy who came back to his teacher years later and talked about the experiences. After listening patiently the teacher said, "Thats something else to let go of isn't it?"

[Warggoath]

well, I will try to explain 1 more time. You have seen how bad I am explaining, especially in english. Here we go:

I have claimed to be Luciferian, but as I am more invidualistic, so I am not actually Luciferian. But my beliefs mostly resemble Luciferian ones. You see Lucifer as a figure of liberation, illumination and wisdom. You are generally kind and caring, but you do have a darker side that rears up from time to time.
I do not worship any god, deity or idol. With seeing I mean mostly ideological or philosophical view, not as much as believing. It would take too much space and time to write all of my views here, and I am short in time so you have to cope with this, I think...

[Lady Dragonfly]

@ Claudius

Edit: I'm not sure what a bodhisattva experience. I have experienced kindness and I don't think that is desire. Do you?

Edit: remember pleasure is not the problem it is attachment.

Kindness is not desire, but desire to help is still desire. When you say, "I want to help you", do you truly mean it, do you feel it in your heart? Would you be pleased with the result of your help (and experience a rush of good feeling due to the release of endorphines)? Would you feel satisfaction that you did the right thing? Do you help because it is the right thing to do, or because you are kind and like helping others? Can you stay emotionally detached? Is it moral to stay emotionally detached? Is it possible?
Help is help, but there is also a difference, IMHO, how it is given: by a warm hand of imperfect human or by a cold hand of perfect one.

One of the motivations to become a buddha is to help people which you find you can do only according to your ability. Also buddha can't wash away ignorance with water. He can only help a person according to their merit meaning effects come from causes and the conditions must be right. A buddha uses skillful means to orchestrate conditions. Also a buddha is not just projecting his own anger, greed, and ignorance.

According to their merit?
What conditions have to be orchestrated in order to help?
And how come an enlightened Buddha still has "anger, greed, and ignorance" to project? And whose ignorance can't be washed with water? Is it like "Don't cast your pearls before swine"?

Paradoxically it requires desire in order to overcome desire. The ego does not exist in an ultimate sense, rather only to appearances. This is samsara. That is what we overcome. So in some sense you need only let go. You need never worry about an ego then as you don't have one and you never can achieve one. Of course in these realms of desire of which being a human is an example we have an "I" that fits into the world. More manure for the practice, I guess. You can overcome "I" by: giving, ethics, patience, effort, one-pointed concentration - samadhi, wisdom. These are not just good suggestions but they are effective due to seeing into emptiness and applying it to help end suffering (compassion).

I understand the concept. I suppose monks can afford to "let go" though it is difficult to comprehend how one can loose the sense of identity without loosing sanity altogether. I can appreciate humility and self-denial, but to spend life in meditation in order to loose ego is beyond my comprehension. But again, a lot of other things are beyond my comprehension as well, so never mind.

I don't believe in what you have said. The powers are perhaps hidden by habitual thinking. If you had them wouldn't they seem ordinary to you?

Actually, I don't believe in

supernatural

powers of the mind either. I believe in human genius. And I believe it can manifest itself in different ways.

[Magrus]

Note: if all of this sounds very strange, please bear in mind that questions were asked. I would laugh loud and long if anybody asked me to "prove" my beliefs, since I don't think any of these matters can be subjected to scientific proof. You either believe, or you don't, and even explanations, such as this, convey at best a pale shade of all of the thought, feeling, and experiences that have led me down my path over the years, and have in turn resulted from that path, ever since.

I have to say, I've been reading the posts you've made in the past week or so in this thread over the past hour here Fable. I'm impressed. This really isn't the place to discuss this kind of thing, kudos to you for attempting it. Then again, you have a great bit of clout here, and the viewpoint on a person from the community at large affects how everything is received when the person produces it, no?

There is a point I feel should be made to follow this up. I follow a belief system that draws heavily on the supernatural. The things that have been driven out of the minds of those in the western hemisphere over the past few thousand years. I run my life according to my own obscure belief system, and it brings me down a path that has separated me from that of most everyone else. Some of what Fable has mentioned fit, but then, he's been running with groups, who have patterned ways for longer than my lifetime. I've been doing my own thing, seeking my own way, with only a brief 1 year stint with a group that impressed their ways of doing things on me.

In that line of thought, "Witchcraft" is a specific grouping a belief systems. Which, like Christianity, has many different branches, and is a general thought process that has variations of all sorts, it doesn't form the entirety of those who follow a supernatural belief system. I've lived and breathed "magic" my whole life, something which has seemed as natural as breathing since I was a baby. I have had situations occur in my life which have forced me to set myself down in "reality" as thought by other folks. The job, rent, responsibilities, etc. That world has no place for "magic" in this time. Yet, it's still there. Like a hair tie in your hair. You get used to it, you don't notice it, and it doesn't affect your job. However, it's still there, doing it's thing in the background.

The thing with how people tend to respond to this, is that we are almost all told from a young age that whatever isn't seen isn't real. "Invisible" people aren't real. Hearing voices that other people can't hear aren't real. Dead people's souls go to heaven, and no, that area over there doesn't "feel funny", you're just imagining things.

As Fable pointed out, he's been dealing with this for 45 years. I don't often discuss this with people, as those who disbelieve say "Well prove it!" I can do some very minor things, which take a lot of time, energy, and focus. Most of the time, with my setup in life, I simply cannot attain the personal energy level and focus anymore, or time in order to be bothered with it, unfortunately. Demanding that it be proven, is understandable. However, it is illogical. It is a way of life, a study of everything. Demanding immediate gratification in proof on something that is like going to school to learn how everything affects everything else is a bit well...umm, over-the-top in expectations. It simply cannot be done.

It is like I am a child, viewing the world, trying to understand everything around me. When I go outside in the middle of a thunderstorm, I don't feel fear like many people do, or discomfort. I feel a comforting vibration along my skin, an excitement that is indescribable. Standing near a very old tree, which is incredibly rare in my part of the world these days provides the same experience. There is a natural energy that flows through things which I feel, much in the same way people feel wind blowing against their skin. I draw it in, and utilize it, much like how people pump gas into their cars.

It isn't like turning the key and starting an engine though when attempting to utilize this energy. It is like trying to turn a ball of cotton into the shape of an ancient Greek temple in great detail. It could be done, however, the amount of energy and focus needed to do so is incredible. Failing is going to happen, repeatedly, until you slowly struggle closer and closer to succeeding. Everything takes time to learn how to do something new. Dealing with something felt, but unseen takes faith in yourself. Just like telling yourself you are not going to crash and burn to death when first trying to drive that car when you get old enough to do so. Without that faith, you get nervous and you lack the ability to be able to perform properly.

The fact you don't see physical results is a reason many people are comforted by the props so often associated with "Witchcraft". My ex and I got into arguments over this for the longest time. She suddenly, about two months ago sent me a message saying she finally understood what I meant in all of our arguments and agreed with me. For the longest time, she was buying books, and candles, and little charms and felt they were a part of the "magic". For her, they were, because she felt it was necessary. You don't need tools to accomplish the things I do, just skill. It isn't like attempting to build a house without a saw and a hammer and wood, but then again it is.

It is hard, time consuming, and takes an incredible amount of effort and focus. Which is being repeated, and that's a huge thing there, so I don't feel bad about it. Your mind is your tool, like the carpenters tool belt. As you learn more, you add more knowledge, more tools to your toolbox. Eventually, you get to the point you go from barehanded and without anything, to the person who has a tool shed full of everything necessary to create anything. However, it takes time, and resources to get that way. For the carpenter, it takes time and money. For one using magic, it takes time and effort, stumbling around, in my case, on my own without anyone to teach me or point out mistakes.

People can say "you're full of it", and "prove it" and whatever else they want. That's fine with me. It is an exclusive practice. Not to be snobbish, but not just anyone can do it. It takes a special set of skills and mindset in order to follow the "Craft". Just like not everyone has what it takes to be a good soldier, or scientist, or doctor, or clockmaker.

I won't claim to be good at it, I'm not. I lack the ability to remember and focus like I could as a child, I could do much more way back then. I know folks who could blow your mind away in what they can accomplish. I worked with them, and I wasn't up to par with their standards. I pulled out, and some of their members put a lot of effort into training me for quite some time. I can't say they were sorry to see me go, I was a drain on their resources, and we all knew it. However, they're still going strong, and their group is spreading. Perhaps, in the near distant future, they will be able to prove the naysayers wrong in an irrefutable manner. I know people have gone up to them at conventions and called them crazy, at which point members of the group have simply, figuratively, pulled their stuff in front of them, and left the folks who called them crazy stunned.

Then again, they don't do so often. They're of the same opinion as I am. It's not for everyone, and with the amount of work they put into it, not many can run with them. Those that can, and want to, will and do find them. Many get shot down after attempting, and some just get turned away because they lack the time to deal with them. These people treat their studies as a science of the supernatural. They tear apart reality into sections to apply the scientific theory to everything. They have meetings in which theories are discussed, torn apart, rebuilt, and then applied. Sometimes, with astonishing results. If anyone can prove to the world at large that the beliefs I hold happen to be more than one grand escapist delusion, it's them.

Recognition isn't necessary, however, to those who are constantly seen as a loony bastard for their beliefs, understanding would be a nice thing if it could occur in the near future. Then again, if and when that happens, those like me who are seen as crazy for it now, might be hounded by those who want to learn. At which point, I might wish to be left alone and considered a nut-job again. I like my private moments of appreciating the world at large in my own, special way.

[Claudius]

Help is help, but there is also a difference, IMHO, how it is given: by a warm hand of imperfect human or by a cold hand of perfect one.

A buddha is warm hearted but the difference is that he doesn't mistake impermanent things for permanent ones and cling to them. He also doesn't mistake permanent qualities like buddha nature as impermanent which would result in despair. If you want to learn more about kindness along the Buddhist path...Karma Triyana Dharmachakra -- Tibetan Buddhism -- Training the Mind in Loving-kindness and Compassion -- Compassion without Illusions

According to their merit?
What conditions have to be orchestrated in order to help?
And how come an enlightened Buddha still has "anger, greed, and ignorance" to project? And whose ignorance can't be washed with water? Is it like "Don't cast your pearls before swine"?

I think what I was trying to say here is that a Buddha doesn't purify people by something like what I understand faith in Jesus removes original sin. Ignorance can only be removed by seeing. Some of the conditions necessary to learn from a buddha I think are listening openmindedly (and heartedly), communication, trust, honesty. I am increasingly of the mind that exchanges with people are more meaningful as a dialogue rather than focusing on 'fixing' some imagined problem with others views. I think this is healthy for me at this time. A buddha has removed anger, greed, and ignorance and even the seeds of them in his store consciousness (if that exists?) so that only the corresponding awakened heart wisdom qualities manifest. A buddha would give pearls to swine only if that would help them. He would go into hell to help beings there. There is something called idiot compassion which a buddha does not do. Like telling someone to fish (kill animals) to feed themselves (resulting in more bad karma). This is my interpretation.

I understand the concept. I suppose monks can afford to "let go" though it is difficult to comprehend how one can loose the sense of identity without loosing sanity altogether. I can appreciate humility and self-denial, but to spend life in meditation in order to loose ego is beyond my comprehension. But again, a lot of other things are beyond my comprehension as well, so never mind.

You can meditate as a layperson. I do. And losing the ego makes you feel more sane rather than less. Sometimes fear arises but you have the tools to allow that fear to rest in your heart. And loss of ego doesn't make you less strong or a whipping boy or girl. In fact to do this practice you have to have a lot of 'self' confidence but it is confidence in your indestructible heart essence or buddha nature.

Giving of yourself, effort, patience, and ethics all help relieve us of the burden of ego. Of course meditation and learning the dharma help as well. Paying attention to what is here and now. Keeping a light touch and compassion for ourselves and those we brush up against as we smooth out our imperfections.

I believe in human genius. And I believe it can manifest itself in different ways.

Yes, me too. I do believe that genius is accessible to all of us and not just those in history. Enjoyed talking

[Lady Dragonfly]

@Cladius

Now I think I understand better. The things you said about honesty, kindness and selfless readiness to help others in a meaningful way made a lot of sense to me. Thank you.

@Magrus

However, they're still going strong, and their group is spreading. Perhaps, in the near distant future, they will be able to prove the naysayers wrong in an irrefutable manner. I know people have gone up to them at conventions and called them crazy, at which point members of the group have simply, figuratively, pulled their stuff in front of them, and left the folks who called them crazy stunned.

Magrus, faith does not need any "irrefutable" proof. Neither does mysticism. As long as your personal spiritual experience enriches your well-being and makes you feel a happier person, everything is great. And you don't owe any explanation to anyone.
However, if one chooses to persuade someone else that one's magical experience is indeed magical, one would be expected to prove it. It is just reasonable. You say that “they” pulled their stuff in front of “them”. At the same time apparently “they” are unable to “prove the naysayers wrong in an irrefutable manner” so far. I would like to know who is who and what kind of stuff “they” pulled, if it is not confidential.

These people treat their studies as a science of the supernatural. They tear apart reality into sections to apply the scientific theory to everything. They have meetings in which theories are discussed, torn apart, rebuilt, and then applied. Sometimes, with astonishing results. If anyone can prove to the world at large that the beliefs I hold happen to be more than one grand escapist delusion, it's them.

If "they" really wish acceptance, then let "them" do it. However, the healthy skepticism is expected. Methodology and the observable, measurable, reproducible evidence will most definitely be under scrutiny.
And, BTW, nobody says that escapism=delusion or Craft=crazy, as I perceive you were implying throughout your post.

Recognition isn't necessary, however, to those who are constantly seen as a loony bastard for their beliefs, understanding would be a nice thing if it could occur in the near future. Then again, if and when that happens, those like me who are seen as crazy for it now, might be hounded by those who want to learn. At which point, I might wish to be left alone and considered a nut-job again. I like my private moments of appreciating the world at large in my own, special way.

You are absolutely right, recognition is not necessary.
I am sorry to hear that people call you names for your sincere beliefs. I am sure you have never spoken derogatively about other people's faith or ideology or opinion yourself.

[Planet_Guardian]

well, I will try to explain 1 more time.

I got you the first time. I was appalled no one saw your point right away. I think they were just too scared of the attached image of "Lucifer/Satan" to your character. I'm with you in spirit, because that's how I apply it, too. I see fear in the eyes of Christians or anybody who feels morally superior over anyone. For they are quick to say what is evil and what is good without ever embracing the actual thoughts of 'Good' and 'Evil'.

Christian perspective:
{Christian Good = Good, Good, Good}
{Christian Bad = Evil, Evil, Evil}...yep, it's that cut and dry for many of the self-absorbed-self-appointed-as-being-morally-superior-folks.

Outside of Christian perspective:
{Christian Good = Is Blind to its own self-absorbedness}
{Christian Bad = Is something not willing to be understood because of Christian's unwillingness to actually see outside of his/her self}

Satire is an instrument that fails in front of the 'Emperors', whom don't realize he/she is wearing no clothes [no validity]. I do the opposite to show my disaproval or to give my drowned spirit renewel, but too many times it is taken literal by the mainstream realities/allusions as being evil/bad. It's all a joke. The ppl being the most serious on the matters of life get beaten out of life by those who think they own it with their self-proclaimed moral superiority.

Everything is Relative. What saddens me is that his, Einstein's documentation on relativity here in this last and recent century, was published and made well known that all things were relative...and we still have ppl who believe in the joke of there being these same old Good's and same old Evil's...that one believes one is Good because one believes something else is Evil. How many times now have we seen this farce? Shouldn't we be in accknowledgement by now that it's time to own-up and be accountable for the fear that we project in this world, we create these personas of there actually being a Good and Evil. I'm a little tired of this on-going joke of one man's fear or a single group of ppl's fear becoming the damnation of all beings for generations and generations to come. When are we going to outgrow our fathers' fears, our ancestorial's nitemares? Why should we have to carry their shame, guilt, and fear on our shoulders and our children's shoulders? As SpongeBob says quite often, "I'm Ready, I'm Ready, I'm Ready'...and I think a lot of ppl are ready to settle these age-old fears that have come to been known as Institutional Religions, Institutional Education, Institututional Governments. We're tired of the fears, the shames, and the guilts that our predessors carried, and that we now are being forced to carry, and are now faced with having to dump on our children of now.

I appologize for everything I've said in life, because I know if I can't say everything, I haven't said anything at all.
-Planet_Guardian