Another new party..

Wraith[x] · Post by **Wraith[x]** » Fri May 11, 2007 1:13 pm

Yep, once again, I made it to the Fel Wood and I'm itching for new people

This time, I'm foolishly thinking about one of the "Ultimate AC" Decoys, which is probably really stupid because I'll probably never get him to HoF..

I have four characters so far:

Character 1 - Deep Gnome Monk (1)/Rogue (1)/Bane (1)/Illusionist (27) (1/20/14/18/20/1)
I realised Str only increased damage done, and didn't reduce damage recieved, and I had the idea of a Tank with 1 Str, it made me :laugh: - then I re-read the UPP guides, and saw it was possible, so I thought I'd give it a go

He's got 18 Int, so he has my rogue skills, search, open, disable device etc.

Character 2 - Human Stormlord of Talos (18/16/18/3/18/3)
I was thinking I'd keep this guy as a pure cleric, using him as Melee and spell support with his lightning goodies

Character 3 - Druid(19)/Bard(11) (3/9/10/18/18/18)
I had the idea of putting the Druid and the Bard in the same build (Barkskin + Sith in one go). She has full Cha and Int, so she's my Diplomat (and my IDer). And from what I read, Druid Shapeshifts replace Str/Con/Dex scores, so she could do some melee too. I guess you can't sing songs in forms though?

Character 4 - Human Sorceror (9/18/18/3/10/18)
Same character I'm using at the moment. Not a lot to say really

I got fed up of having six characters, especially in the Ice Temple, the pathfinding was awful, so I want to keep it down to four or maybe five. But I was wondering - would one cleric be enough to keep them up? Will there be enough firepower with only one 'proper' caster? Or should I just abandon this foolish idea and stick with the party I have now?

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Fri May 11, 2007 9:39 pm

1 Str is terrible because you'll need to boost your Str just to equip items.

One cleric is enough. You also have a druid/bard mix, which is a decent healer too. A single level of fighter on the cleric is useful for the martial weapon feats.

If you are going to go to all of the trouble to have a 1 Str decoy, add some more casters.

I suspect that you won't have enough patience to finish the game with a gimmick character if you can't do it with a balanced party.

Your #1 and #3 characters are essentially party support characters. I'd personally go for a little less specialization in a party of 4.

Wraith[x] · Post by **Wraith[x]** » Sat May 12, 2007 1:38 pm

Yeah, I was thinking the same

I like my party, but I want to see HoF, and none of these can get the 72 AC they need.. ah well, maybe I'll finish these, then reroll a 72 AC party after

Wraith[x] · Post by **Wraith[x]** » Sat May 12, 2007 6:42 pm

I decided to stick with the party I'm with now, and finish the game at least once

But I'm already thinking about my next party (Hell, I'm always thinking about my next party!) and for next time, I have a few questions..

Would a Bard(11)/Druid(19) character be feasible? If I gave the character those stats, would he be able to melee effectively with Forms? I've only used a Druid once before, a long time ago, and I don't know much about them.. That guy is only there for the 72 AC idea though, and I'm not a huge bard fan, so I might try mixing the Druid with something else, or making it Pure.

Also, I was thinking of having a dedicated sniper in the team. I figure Fighter(4)/Something(X) is the way to go, but I wasn't sure what something. I was thinking of Paladin or Ranger. They've got the top BAB, which would make the archery most effective, and also some spellcasting goodies too, or maybe a Cleric - less effective shooting, but with better spells..

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Sun May 13, 2007 4:51 am

Wraith[x] wrote:Character 3 - Druid(19)/Bard(11) (3/9/10/18/18/18)
I had the idea of putting the Druid and the Bard in the same build (Barkskin + Sith in one go). She has full Cha and Int, so she's my Diplomat (and my IDer). And from what I read, Druid Shapeshifts replace Str/Con/Dex scores, so she could do some melee too. I guess you can't sing songs in forms though?

...*YOU* had this idea?!!! :laugh:

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Sun May 13, 2007 8:21 am

silverdragon72 wrote:...*YOU* had this idea?!!! :laugh:

Yep, because since you thought of it as well, there's no chance this poster came up with the idea on their own.

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Sun May 13, 2007 9:14 am

Klorox wrote:Yep, because since you thought of it as well, there's no chance this poster came up with the idea on their own.

...yes maybe,...

...if this one wasn't just a copy (with some minor changes) of the build I posted in my guide...

...and if he hadn't stated before, that he reads the powergaming guides...

...and if we didn't discussed this build a few weeks ago...

...yes then maybe this was his own idea... :laugh:

.

Wraith[x] · Post by **Wraith[x]** » Sun May 13, 2007 10:43 am

Just because you had the idea doesn't mean I didn't have it too.. and the Powergaming guides I used are UPP and JUPP

I didn't use your guide much, and your Druid/Bard is 21/9, not 19/11, so you don't get the Sith chant, so it is not the same as my idea - which I'm not claiming was my original idea, but I didn't copy it from any guides.

Also, I hadn't actually noticed that you had a Druid/Bard in your guide at all. Perhaps it would help if you put the character builds on the contents page (eg say "7.5. Powerfull MC-builds - 5th PC - diplomat / party support (Druid(21)/Bard(9))" instead of just "7.5. Powerfull MC-builds - 5th PC - diplomat / party support")

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Sun May 13, 2007 4:06 pm

Wraith[x] wrote:Just because you had the idea doesn't mean I didn't have it too.. and the Powergaming guides I used are UPP and JUPP

I didn't use your guide much, and your Druid/Bard is 21/9, not 19/11, so you don't get the Sith chant, so it is not the same as my idea - which I'm not claiming was my original idea, but I didn't copy it from any guides.

Also, I hadn't actually noticed that you had a Druid/Bard in your guide at all. Perhaps it would help if you put the character builds on the contents page (eg say "7.5. Powerfull MC-builds - 5th PC - diplomat / party support (Druid(21)/Bard(9))" instead of just "7.5. Powerfull MC-builds - 5th PC - diplomat / party support")

...didn't we discuss this build a few weeks ago?

...and just have a look at 7.5. under the last section "alternate builds": 19 / 11 is recommended there if you don't use Weimar!

...but however, just was surprised that someone claimed this as own idea, after this build was discussed that many times on this forum...

.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Mon May 14, 2007 11:11 pm

Bickering aside, if you want to use shapeshifted forms in HoF, you'd better install the improved shapeshifting component of the Weimar mod. Be warned, if you take a Bard11, the temptation to abuse the Lingering Song exploit with War Chant will be terrible.

It's a viable build, but it's really a support character. A druid is a decent offensive caster in the normal game, but all the damaging evocation and transmutation spells lose effectiveness in HoF against monsters with vastly better saves and HP. I like a bard/wizard combo myself - the stats and spell focus feats complement each other better, and you have more racial options (e.g. drow).

Btw, you do not need 72 AC to beat HoF. It's handy, but you have several other potential paths to victory.

Wraith[x] · Post by **Wraith[x]** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:16 am

I'm starting to hate my Bard, she just seems like a waste of a place. I don't like the fact that she can't do anything and sing at the same time, I'd far rather have another slot of DPS, so I think for my next party I'll abandon Mr Silverdragon's idea and just go for a Druid.

I've not looked much into them, but the EoU forms seem a bit like cheating to me. Kinda like installing a mod to make all wizard spells do double damage. Do they make such a huge difference that they 'break' the game?

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Tue May 15, 2007 1:19 pm

Wraith[x] wrote:I'm starting to hate my Bard, she just seems like a waste of a place. I don't like the fact that she can't do anything and sing at the same time, I'd far rather have another slot of DPS, so I think for my next party I'll abandon Mr Silverdragon's idea and just go for a Druid.

I've not looked much into them, but the EoU forms seem a bit like cheating to me. Kinda like installing a mod to make all wizard spells do double damage. Do they make such a huge difference that they 'break' the game?

...funny somehow...

...hope you just don't hate the build, as it wasn't your origin idea...

...the idea is still to have one pure support PC, instead of weakening all other builds for this job...

...and btw. even not involved in direct fighting, this build is quite effective in combat as it could give very flexible support depending on the tactical situation!

...as long as you don't use the EuO shapeshifts in the normal game (where especially the half-dragons would be terribly overpowered) it's ok as the standard shapeshifts are much to weak for HOF...

...btw. the main weakness of the EoU shapeshift is their very low AC - another reason to have the bard with MI...

.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Wed May 16, 2007 11:53 pm

A bard's influence can be quite subtle. Singing the luck song in the early to mid game is great for a party that uses a lot of melee/ranged fighting.

The EoU shapeshifts are indeed nearly game-breaking on normal. I tested some out, and even the Remorhaz (available at lvl 9, I believe) is way too good for the level at which you acquire the form. However, they are not overpowered for HoF. By contrast, the unmodded shapeshifts, even the "best" ones, are quite underpowered for HoF.

Just don't use them on normal. A druid is an underrated offensive caster in normal mode.

Wraith[x] · Post by **Wraith[x]** » Thu May 17, 2007 7:25 pm

I get that they're subtle, and they affect everyone, and they do all this great stuff for the party. The trouble is, I tend to use my casters as ranged support for most littler monsters, and I just find it takes some of the fun out of the game if every time you want to attack something you have to make sure you deselect your bard first, and run them into the right positions, and make sure everyone hears her song, etc etc. I'd rather have a DPS character, even if it's just a sniper type.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Thu May 17, 2007 11:51 pm

I actually find them less work. Yes you have to de-select sometimes, but you also don't have to do anything with them (e.g. attack, change weapons, etc) other than cast or change songs occasionally, if you keep them out of combat.

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Fri May 18, 2007 2:22 am

.

if we talk about work, I find it more disturbing that you need to recast about 40 spells after each resting on ahigher level and another 20 for each battle...

...at least if you want to be maximum buffed!

...selecting or deselecting party members before battles isn't that much effort compared to this...

.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Fri May 18, 2007 6:40 am

Wraith[x] wrote:I get that they're subtle, and they affect everyone, and they do all this great stuff for the party. The trouble is, I tend to use my casters as ranged support for most littler monsters, and I just find it takes some of the fun out of the game if every time you want to attack something you have to make sure you deselect your bard first, and run them into the right positions, and make sure everyone hears her song, etc etc. I'd rather have a DPS character, even if it's just a sniper type.

Get the Lingering Song feat.

Except for the big battles, you're not even refreshing the song a lot of the time.