School massacre in Finland

[Kipi]

Seems like some youngsters are actually idolizing the shooter...
YouTube shootings video was 'joke' - CNN.com

This ain't the only case, which is very sad thing...

[Vicsun]

None of them deserve to die, but for some, maybe dying at a young age is better, so they do not suffer for the rest of thier lives

you're a fantastic human being

[Loki[D.d.G]]

you're a fantastic human being

Are you being sarcastic?

Seems like some youngsters are actually idolizing the shooter...

Omg....

[Crenshinibon]

I searched around and people saved the video before it was taken down. Here are the links.

YouTube - Jokela High School Massacre warning vid - I'M NOT THE GUY

YouTube - Jokela High School Massacre

At the end of the first video, there is a line that says "Si vis pacem para bellum" which my girlfriend decoded as "If you seek peace, prepare for war" in Latin.

[Loki[D.d.G]]

At the end of the first video, there is a line that says "Si vis pacem para bellum" which my girlfriend decoded as "If you seek peace, prepare for war" in Latin.

How ironic. The only way to peace is war and destruction?

I don't think so....

[Crenshinibon]

While not all may agree and while it may not be true, that is why mankind has been involved in countless wars, for the sake of peace, even our current "war on terror" is supposed to be for the sake of peace. Like it or not, that is how wars are justified.

[prof. Moriarty]

Crystal shard> Yep, your girlfriends translation is accurate. Old roman proverb, or adage or whatnot. Hasn't worked yet, though.
Then again, some nations just overdo it. Others the opposite (think UK -39).

The one GOOD thing that has come out of all this, the proverbial silverlining of a very dark cloud is that finnish goverment has made it clear that there will be need of stricter gun control. Not much for the grieving families, but it's a start for preventing an encore.

Finlands sak är vår.
P

[Kipi]

Crystal shard> Yep, your girlfriends translation is accurate. Old roman proverb, or adage or whatnot. Hasn't worked yet, though.
Then again, some nations just overdo it. Others the opposite (think UK -39).

The one GOOD thing that has come out of all this, the proverbial silverlining of a very dark cloud is that finnish goverment has made it clear that there will be need of stricter gun control. Not much for the grieving families, but it's a start for preventing an encore.

Finlands sak är vår.
P

Yeah, I personally agree with you that it's good that our gun laws are made more strict, but had those laws prevented the incident if they had been in use before? Many, especially here in Finland, does not take it in account that this guy would have got the gun anyway. If not legally then unlegally. The difference? None.

[prof. Moriarty]

Correct. We will not know, of course, but the shooter might have gotten a gun illegaly if he hadn't been able to buy one in another way.
But I think, and this is my own, personal viewpoint, that stricter gun control results in a more responsible and healthy relationship with guns in the society as a WHOLE. Which would prevent at least some murders. No offense meant to our american friends here on the forum. But their laws is a great example of how NOT to do it.

And that leads me back to another part of the discussion.
1. Yes, our games have contributed to the violence in certain cases, have made SOME people snap. But there is no way of saying that it does contribute to the angst and depression and any other kind of mental illnesses that is at the core, and which strains certain people to breaking. The hate mongering against computer games is misguided. If more parents took a greater part in their kids' lives, from the very BEGINNING and if more grown-ups taught them respect for- and solidarity with their fellow men (and women ) from tender age we would see less suicides, less rapes, less violence and less killilngs among young people. Banning games would not accomplish that. Groups of people that see games as the source of all violence among young people are either missing the point or actively (knowingly or not) blaming someone else for their own misstakes (as individuals or as a whole).
2. Violence is a dark part of the human nature. Sometimes it goes out of hand no matter how sucessfull the society is in preventing it. Therefore we need to make guns as hard to get to as possible outside of regulated circumstances.

Deus Vult!
P

[Loki[D.d.G]]

The one GOOD thing that has come out of all this, the proverbial silverlining of a very dark cloud is that finnish goverment has made it clear that there will be need of stricter gun control. Not much for the grieving families, but it's a start for preventing an encore.

In the US, schools have been equipped with metal detectors for some time now. This was supposed to avert more school killings, but evidently, it has not managed to prevent them altogether.

[imawindowlickr]

I'm sorry...

Gun control? Really? Wow. I'm no redneck. Charlton Heston can KMA. But gun control? Bad guys will always acquire bad things. They are bad guys cause they operate outside of the law. I don't think anyone planning or ready to commit an armed crime is hesitating because they have to go through the legal channels to obtain a firearm. Gun control doesn't slow down a bad guy wanting to do bad things.

So how is that one good thing?

[Loki[D.d.G]]

Gun control? Really? Wow. I'm no redneck. Charlton Heston can KMA. But gun control? Bad guys will always acquire bad things. They are bad guys cause they operate outside of the law. I don't think anyone planning or ready to commit an armed crime is hesitating because they have to go through the legal channels to obtain a firearm. Gun control doesn't slow down a bad guy wanting to do bad things.

So how is that one good thing?

If some lunatics are deprived of owning guns, then some of this instances can be averted. It would be much better than allowing every Tom, Dick and Harry to just purchase a deadly weapon without the requisite legal documents.

Someone who really wants to kill others might go all out to obtain his gun. But there are others who just wouldn't bother and maybe take out thier anger on themselves instead. Wishful thinking, I know

[C Elegans]

Sorry for not being able to comment on this earlier.
My condolences to all the victims and their families. What a horrible tragedy this incidents are. And yes, in my opinion equally tragic to all other meaningless killings of innocent people.

Now, what makes me worried is that media has already found out that the guy responsible for the shooting did play FPS games, especially Battle Field 2, and was playing even couple of hours before the incident. And the media hasn't even tried to cover it, but has been spreading around as like they were trying to move some of the blame to gaming industry.

What do you think of this?

Honestly I think that the issue of how this reflects on the computer game industry, is the least important problem. The gaming industry will survive and make their money regardless of a temporary media debate regarding the potential negative influence of violent games. And seriously, there is evidence that consumption of violent media has an influence on people's behaviour, as shown in scientific studies of the topic. This of course does not mean that "violent media creates violent acts", but it does mean that violent and aggressive people can get reinforcement and inspiration from violent media.

Swedish media has however not focused on computer games, but on other factors. Mainly two angels are discussed, the "it could happen here, what should we do about it"-angle wish interviews with psychologists and forensic experts, and partly the problem that internet communities provide like-minded people, also disturbed ones, with reinforcement and admiration for their devious ideas (like in this case, the eco-fascistic narcissism that is reported to have influenced Auvinen's perception of the world and other people). This problem is however not specific for school shootings, but has been discussed in relation to self-destructive acts such as suicide-pacts and extreme risk taking behaviour that cause people to die in accidents, and also in relation "bumfights" and other violent acts that are that uploaded to file sharing sites, thus contributing to additional abuse of the victim.

So far this is what is know about the backgrounds of the killer:

• He was politically radical. Even though his opinion and side changed almost weekly, it was always the most radical side
• He had stated that the massacre will be political terrorism act
• He wanted to get his name to some well known international list of most famous mass murderers
• He thought he was equal to god, and everyone not suited to his believes and visions of the world should die
• He used medicines for mental problems, but quited using those couple of days before the incident
• He wasn't one of those who like to hang out with others, but instead liked to be alone more

This is only short list, most of the things known sums up the ideology of his and hov he visioned the world.

1. He was not a gun nut. He was a member of an ordinary shooting club with strict rules, and bought a light handgun when he was allowed by law and the the club to do so.
2. He was a good student.
3. He was a loner, but was not picked upon or abused by his classmates. In fact he had a pretty girlfriend who recently broke up with him, and a couple of close male friends.
4. He had no history of violence or erratic behaviour. The statements made about him not taking his meds is completely new to me, and the medias I read.
5. He was obviously inspired by Columbine and Virginia Tech. Already experts and police are calling him a "copycat" based on the evidence uncovered.
6. Misery loves Company. Though I am a staunch supporter of strict gun control, there is no way to prevent this thing from happening. Especially not when it's slowly turning into a sick "trend" based on input and hyperbole.

Both of your lists fits relatively well with the known risk factors which I posted in the Virginia thread previously:
http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/speak ... 34-p3.html

Is anything known about Auvinen's upbringing and social life apart from his activities in internet communities? What about his psychiatric disorder, what kind of problems did he get medication for and how long was his history of disorder?

Is this how Norwegian media have pictured the thing? It's a bit different from Swedish media, then. Already after the Virginia school shootings, Swedish forensic experts were all over the press talking about that this could happen here, and most likely will. Although it's more difficult to kill a large amount of people here due to different weapon culture and stricter gun control that makes it more difficult to get a gun, it is still possible to get a gun and furthermore, you can attack people with other weapons although the death toll will likely be smaller. The massacre in Finland added to the media debate that it can, and most likely will, happen here as well. The important issue is, how do we prevent it?

[Maharlika]

From a school administrator's point of view...

... I don't think stricter gun laws and metal detectors are the keys to the solution of this type of a problem.

The school should provide institutionalized supportive structures that would prevent or even minimize students of EVEN JUST THINKING ABOUT SERIOUSLY USING VIOLENCE AS AN OPTION to their problems.

Things like concerted effort to prevent even the existence of bullying... strong guidance counseling system (hey, you need NOT be in trouble just to talk to the guidance counselors )... a culture of kindness and respect at school... etc., would significantly help in averting such an idea of school violence from even taken as an alternative for students to address their problems.

There's NO SUCH THING as a profile of a school shooter. So stereotypes such as being gamers, goths,etc. are actually unsubstantiated and are not reliable.

[edit] Here is my [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/speak-your-mind-16/massacre-in-virginia-33-students-dead-87134-p11.html#post937020"]post[/url] from the link provided by CE in her above post.

[C Elegans]

Off topic, but...

Pfft. Thousands of kids die every day around the world, why cry when a few Europeans get shot?

Why not cry equally much for all meaningless deaths of innocent people? I know a guy living just south of Sahara who's teenage daughter died of tuberculosis (one of the major causes of death in this region) because they couldn't afford the 20 Euro that the medicine that would have cured her, costed. Who is to blame for this? In a sense, all of us are to blame for this indirectly, because we accept to vote for those politicians who don't work for strengthening of the economies in the world's poorest countries and for introducing some type of global support sharing the cost for medicines.

Of course this father and mother cried as much as the parents of the Finnish youths. And of course it is equally unacceptable, at least in my view, but it's much easier to prevent school shootings than to resolve the world's financial unfairness.

[C Elegans]

... I don't think stricter gun laws and metal detectors are the keys to the solution of this type of a problem.

The school should provide institutionalized supportive structures that would prevent or even minimize students of EVEN JUST THINKING ABOUT SERIOUSLY USING VIOLENCE AS AN OPTION to their problems.

Things like concerted effort to prevent even the existence of bullying... strong guidance counseling system (hey, you need NOT be in trouble just to talk to the guidance counselors )... a culture of kindness and respect at school... etc., would significantly help in averting such an idea of school violence from even taken as an alternative for students to address their problems.

There's NO SUCH THING as a profile of a school shooter. So stereotypes such as being gamers, goths, etc. are actually unsubstantiated and are not reliable.

There's no such thing as a profile of anything, but there are risk factors. Known factors that will increase the risk for individuals vulnerable to these kind of disorders, just as smoking is a known risk factor for lung cancer for certain individuals, and cannabis is a risk factor for development of psychosis disease for certain individuals.

Known risk factors include a lot of things that are possible to influence at least partly, such as social competence, coping style, depression, tendency to respond with aggression, erranous self-view blaming others for misfortunes etc.

Know protective factors include positive social relationships and committment and successful acheivements in school.

Provided with a perfectly working social protection network including all relevant levels in society (family, friends, school, counselling, psychiatric care etc) we could probably never stop 100% of these acts but surely 99% or even 99.9%.

[Maharlika]

There's no such thing as a profile of anything, but there are risk factors. Known factors that will increase the risk for individuals vulnerable to these kind of disorders, just as smoking is a known risk factor for lung cancer for certain individuals, and cannabis is a risk factor for development of psychosis disease for certain individuals.

Known risk factors include a lot of things that are possible to influence at least partly, such as social competence, coping style, depression, tendency to respond with aggression, erranous self-view blaming others for misfortunes etc.

Know protective factors include positive social relationships and committment and successful acheivements in school.

Provided with a perfectly working social protection network including all relevant levels in society (family, friends, school, counselling, psychiatric care etc) we could probably never stop 100% of these acts but surely 99% or even 99.9%.

Indeed. It is how these risk factors are present in each individual is what is needed to be analyzed, hence a need for Threat Assessments in school. We got gun enthusiasts and gamers in our school yet they were not classified as "high-risk." Now, if there are disturbing signs that these risk factors are pointing to that "danger" direction, then the Threat Assessment should be elevated to a Threat Investigation involving law enforcement agencies, especially if there are evidences that a doable and detailed plan coupled with verifiable procurement of dangerous weapons/explosives are present.

Here is another [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/speak-your-mind-16/the-neverending-story-another-school-shooting-92870.html#post963020"]post[/url] of mine which complements what CE is trying to point out.

[Kipi]

Sorry, can't answer to all points thrown out here since my last visit, as I have only 5 minutes remaining of my internet time (Net Coffee place )

Honestly I think that the issue of how this reflects on the computer game industry, is the least important problem. The gaming industry will survive and make their money regardless of a temporary media debate regarding the potential negative influence of violent games. And seriously, there is evidence that consumption of violent media has an influence on people's behaviour, as shown in scientific studies of the topic. This of course does not mean that "violent media creates violent acts", but it does mean that violent and aggressive people can get reinforcement and inspiration from violent media.

You are right, and I mostly used it to begin some discussion here (we are gaming community, after all). Also, gaming and movies and violent in media has got so big attention in this case here, so at times it seems that to media it's one of the most important problems...

Both of your lists fits relatively well with the known risk factors which I posted in the Virginia thread previously:
http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/speak ... 34-p3.html

Is anything known about Auvinen's upbringing and social life apart from his activities in internet communities? What about his psychiatric disorder, what kind of problems did he get medication for and how long was his history of disorder?

I've seen it mentioned somewhere couple of days back, I'll look for it and post it later. And thanks for the link.

Is this how Norwegian media have pictured the thing? It's a bit different from Swedish media, then. Already after the Virginia school shootings, Swedish forensic experts were all over the press talking about that this could happen here, and most likely will. Although it's more difficult to kill a large amount of people here due to different weapon culture and stricter gun control that makes it more difficult to get a gun, it is still possible to get a gun and furthermore, you can attack people with other weapons although the death toll will likely be smaller. The massacre in Finland added to the media debate that it can, and most likely will, happen here as well. The important issue is, how do we prevent it?

They weren't the only ones. There has been couple of intervieves done here, where for example one ex-teachter, now a book writer told that she has been expecting this to happen last 15 years. She wasn't able to say when it happens, but that it does happen.


Okay, time running out, I'll return back on topic later,

[Faberge]

May I ask how would you make the gun restriction more strict?

In order to purchase a fire-arm or a part of a fire-arm in Finland, it is required that you have first received a written permission from the local borough’s or your place of residence’s local police department. In order to purchase an especially dangerous fire-arm you are required to have received a written permission from the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

And in order to receive this permission you must first fill an application, and return it to the local police department personally. Though there are some exceptions to this rule.

If you have received a permission to purchase a gun, the permission will grant you the right to purchase a gun for a maximum time of six months, although for a fire-arm collector the maximum time limit to purchase a gun is one year . With this permission you will also receive a right to purchase ammunition, and keep in your possession a fire-arm, or a part of a fire-arm temporarily.

If a fire-arm is not purchased in the set time limit, it must be returned to the closest police department within 30 days.

If a fire-arm is purchased, there is a time limit of 30 days in which you must request a permission to keep the gun in your possession. And in order to receive this permission you must present the written permission to purchase a fire-arm and the fire-arm itself, or the part of a fire-arm to the police department of your local borough or place of residence. The police department can also cancel your right to have a fire-arm in your possession.

Permission to have the fire-arm in your possession is usually given for the time being, unless for a special reason the permission has been given for a term.

Permission to purchase a fire-arm can be granted to a person of the age of 18-years whose state of health and behaviour are such that a fire-arm can be trusted in his possession. Though a person as young as 15-years can be permitted to purchase a gun if the person meets the other requirements and has a permission from his or hers guardians.

Also the fire-arm must be fitting to the purpose it was purchased. Thus based on the size of clip, it’s calibre, and/or by other properties, the fire-arm must not have exceedingly large firepower or efficiency when considering the purpose of which the fire-arm is to be purchased.

These are the agreeable uses for fire-arms in Finland:

1) Hunting, as it is stated in the hunting legislation
2) Possession of a firearm for use of sport, or a hobby
3) Work, where possession of a gun is necessary
4) An act, or a similar performance
5) Having the fire-arm on display in museums or at personal collections
6) Keeping the gun as memorial item
7) Signalling, such as firing the starting signal in athletic games

Plus the fire-arm must be stored out of hands in a locked space, or it must be dismantled and the pieces must be stored in at least two separate locations.

Anyone can freely purchase an airgun in Finland.


It is most unfortunate that such cases as what happened in Jokela happen in our modern world, and my condolences to the victims, their families and anyone who has went through such traumatizing situation.

[prof. Moriarty]

Gun control? Really? Wow. I'm no redneck. Charlton Heston can KMA. But gun control? Bad guys will always acquire bad things. They are bad guys cause they operate outside of the law. I don't think anyone planning or ready to commit an armed crime is hesitating because they have to go through the legal channels to obtain a firearm. Gun control doesn't slow down a bad guy wanting to do bad things.

So how is that one good thing?

You are right insomuch that it is impossible to stop evil people from acquiring guns. I have never tried to even pretend that so would be the case. However there is two other points worth considering.
1: Just because it is impossible to succeed completely doesn't mean that it is not worth doing. If we strive for the impossible at least we'll reach as far as we possibly can.
2 (and most important): Strict gun control is one of several important factors in building a society where this kind of tragedies will not need to occur TO BEGIN WITH. It is not simply "let's take the matches away from the lunatic" but a preventive measure of building a safe and harmonic society. A society where everyone, even the relative stranger next door, may own a revolver and live ammunition will NOT be a society where one can feel safe from harm. It is simply quite true that: "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffing."
I mean no offense to my american brothers and sisters, but from my point of view there is clearly a reason why most of these hideous tragedies has occured in the United States.

I'm sorry if I'm rambling. I've gotten a cold that has transformed my brainmatter to overcooked macaronis.

Finlands sak är vår.
P