Angels and Demons

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

It turns out all those instances of Catholic priests fiddling with kiddies isn't down to [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/speak-your-mind-16/catholicism-is-cool-just-has-bad-demon-infestation-117198.html"]a demon infestation after all[/url], no - according to Cardinal Tercisio Bertone, a 'top prelate', it's actually [url="http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/04/14/2872943.htm"]all those darn gay priests[/url] giving the rest of God's faithful shepherds a bad name. It's not the celibacy (what could be more natural than denying one of the most basic biological drives we humans have?), not the doctrine of born into inherited guilt and sexual guilt especially, not even the simple fact that paedophiles are likely to gravitate to positions of trust where they have easy access to children, nope - it's those filthy homos again. You'd think they'd gotten the idea after getting their butts kicked in Sodom and Gomorrah, but noooo...here they are back to their old tricks.
[url="http://dayeight.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/god-hates-fags.jpg"]CURSE[/url] [url="http://davekellogg.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/godhatesfags.jpg"]YOU[/url] [url="http://proudatheists.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/god-hates.jpg"]GAYS[/url]!

And really, isn't it obvious when you think about? I mean, [url="http://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/custom/dhbkirfm.jpeg"]who wouldn't trust a face like this?[/url] I can only assume those gay priests [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wft w5jA&feature=related"]look and sound something like this[/url].

On a slightly more serious note, I totally appreciate that this is a doctrinal and/or organizational problem rather than a reflection of all individual Catholics, but really...can we just get Mah for Pope already so maybe instead of blaming gays or dodging the issue the RCC can just get onto the business of actually doing something about stopping it?
It's [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases"]stuff[/url] [url="http://www.godhatesfags.com/"]like[/url] [url="http://www.godhatestheworld.com/"]this[/url] that makes me glad I'm a [url="http://www.venganza.org/"]Pastafarian[/url]...

[jklinders]

I have a simple and overwhelmingly rude solution to this newest piece of idiocy. This summer every Gay Pride organization the world over should send representatives to St. Peters Square to have the biggest damn Gay Pride celebration in history on the Pope's doorstep.

I just don't see any senior church official having the stones to slander any portion of the population ever again after that.

[Stworca]

Few pointers before i write the post

First of all : excuse me if i misunderstood something (english is a foreign language for me)
Second of all : I am not homosexual, and i don't see this changing in the future. As a matter of fact, i find it disgusting (the ACT not the love they share) but i'm a rather tolerant person and i live by "As long as they don't want me to become of them, i don't mind" motto.
Last, but not least : I'm an atheist. (It does not mean that i worship satan, or go on a killing spree every sunday afternoon. It doesn't make me a member of Al-kaida). But i respect other peoples beliefs, and i see the value of religion.

Now to the point.

The hate that gay people face every day, is unacceptable. And when it comes from the church, its an extreme case of "the pot calling the kettle black" except for the fact, that kettle does not molest baby-pots and baby-kettles, nor does it spread intolerance against casseroles. With this beign said, i must say that even though the OriginalPost was incredibly funny, knowing that without images it could be an official vatican statement, makes me sad

[Xandax]

<snip>It's not the celibacy (what could be more natural than denying one of the most basic biological drives we humans have?)<snip>

Seriously - the celibacy issue is as poor an excuse as "the gay priests".
If somebody is living in celibacy there's still a tremendous jump over to the abusing of children avenue.
Even if it is a biological drive, we're still in control of said drive.
It isn't like hunger or sleep which will kill you if you abstain.

[jklinders]

Agreed, blaming Celibacy for molestation is like a drunkard blaming his fighting on the alcohol. The booze does not give any new violent impulses.

Ode does make a beautiful point about pedophiles flocking to authority positions with easy access to children. This is bad enough in most organizations, but when you toss in legal immunity (or close to it) in so many parts of the world, the average pedo is thinking "JACKPOT".

The Catholics still after all this time want their own courts and "punishments " for their abusers. This is no longer acceptable. By the Catholics, I mean the higher church officials, I don't think the average parishioner ever approved of "laws for them and laws for me"

[RPGguy]

Ode does make a beautiful point about pedophiles flocking to authority positions with easy access to children.

That's all there is to the issue as far as I'm concerned.

[jklinders]

That's all there is to the issue as far as I'm concerned.

If only, because there is a bit more. Again I am only targeting Church officials not the religion here.

If Boy Scouts of (insert name of country here) finds out one of their people are abusing boys they are turned over to the police. Apparently when a Catholic priest is found to be abusing alter boys they are shipped off to an abbey somewhere, repent for their sins and in many cases returned to a different parish as if it won't happen again. Obstruction of justice has occurred in several places as well. Not only are the pedos being shielded from the law here, in many cases they are being unleashed on a different parish to continue the same practice.

I am not speaking hypothetically here. A bishop here in Nova Scotia was involved in mediating a settlement for abuse that amounted to a gag order. Not long after his laptop was searched at an airport and his computer had child porn on it. Link for you. CBC News - Nova Scotia - N.S. bishop wanted on child porn charges


Believe me, there is very good reason why stories like this have legs. they do not travel as well as they do without having some truth.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

[url="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/14/how-the-church-shuffled-p_n_538010.html"]True.[/url]

I'm with Stworca on the gay thing - the whole (male) gay sex thing really doesn't do it for me but as long as I don't have to deal with it myself I'm really not fussed. Besides, like many 'lots of my friends are gay' and like the rest of my friends I'd rather they have as few hassles in life as possible.
I actually quite approve of male homosexuality on the basis of every gay guy out there is one less straight guy, which benefits me as a straight guy. Lesbianism is pretty much the inverse (subject to the individual lesbians) - nice to see, but irritating as a phenomenon. In the ideal world according to Odie (very pragmatist and selfish) every man besides myself (and a few of my best friends who all have markedly different tastes in women to me) would be gay, and every woman bi with a preference for men.

As far as the celibacy and sexual guilt bit goes, I agree it's pretty incidental, but in my experience most things are pretty multi-causal and I can't help but feel that if some of those pedo priests had a healthy outlet for their sexuality - like sex with fellow consenting adults - and weren't always being indoctrinated with the message that sex=bad there'd be less instances of paedophilia from the clergy actually happening. The PPs would like as not still have the occasional (or even frequent) inappropriate urge, sure, but I'd say less would actually follow through on it, or at most just fantasize while bonking their wives - still kinda wrong, sure, but way better than actually doing it (obviously I'm not a believer in that "whosoever lusts after children in their heart is just as bad as those who actually do it" schtick).
But then that's just an IMO - I'm not a psych expert at all so I may be way off here.

[endboss]

Well, obviously homosexuality plays a role. After all, it's hard to find boys attractive if you're not gay. Celibacy also plays a role, as forcing someone to act against their natural biological urges always has consequences. Suppression of homosexuality (it is a sin in the Bible), which is a natural sexual orientation, also has consequences. To any of your heteros out there, imagine if you were in a religion where being straight was a sin, and you were forced to either be celibate or have sex with your own gender. Personally, I find the ass to be very disgusting and would have trouble holding in my vomit at a gay bar, and I have no doubt that gay dudes find the vagina disgusting and would be incredibly grossed out at a strip joint. The problem is suppression, and until you eliminate that root cause by editing the Bible and Catholic doctrine, the problem will continue to manifest itself. The other problem is, of course, immoral predatory behavior on the young of our species with no consequence, and until the law is allowed to step in these abuses will continue to flourish.

Anyways, as both homosexuality and priest sex is seen as a sin, and the devil is the king of all sin, then technically they still have a bad demon infestation, so the original hypothesis still stands.

[jklinders]

Homosexuality having anything to do with pedophilia is a common misconception. Hopefully C Elegans drops by and clarifies on this professionally. In the meantime I pulled this quote off the Wiki. "It is notable that this work also indicates several cases of pedophilia among adult women (provided by another physician), and also considered the abuse of boys by homosexual men to be extremely rare." Link to full article here. Pedophilia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is by definition a mental illness and should not in any way be associated with people who have healthy sexual urges. This would be true even if there were large numbers of homosexual men involved in these acts which is statistically not true. Like most forms of rape I suspect the real turn on is control, but I am in no way qualified to make any further judgments. Just wanted to clear that up Endboss, I got too many gay friends who are sick of the lie of the homo pedo being circulated to let that misconception pass.

[endboss]

Homosexuality having anything to do with pedophilia is a common misconception. Hopefully C Elegans drops by and clarifies on this professionally. In the meantime I pulled this quote off the Wiki. "It is notable that this work also indicates several cases of pedophilia among adult women (provided by another physician), and also considered the abuse of boys by homosexual men to be extremely rare." Link to full article here. Pedophilia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is by definition a mental illness and should not in any way be associated with people who have healthy sexual urges. This would be true even if there were large numbers of homosexual men involved in these acts which is statistically not true. Like most forms of rape I suspect the real turn on is control, but I am in no way qualified to make any further judgments. Just wanted to clear that up Endboss, I got too many gay friends who are sick of the lie of the homo pedo being circulated to let that misconception pass.

I wonder if you only skimmed my post instead of actually reading it, or if I was unclear. Either way, I'll elaborate. I don't think anyone with a fully functioning brain can argue that there is a link between pedophilia and homosexuality. Finding underage boys attractive rather than underage girls, however, is *ahem* gay. If these priests would have molested girls, then they would be straight. This doesn't mean that there is a connection between heterosexuality and pedophilia. It's just that, by definition, you have to have some heavy homosexual tendencies to want to have sex with others of your gender. Likewise, you have to have some heavy heterosexual tendencies if you want to have sex with the opposite gender.

[jklinders]

I wonder if you only skimmed my post instead of actually reading it, or if I was unclear. Either way, I'll elaborate. I don't think anyone with a fully functioning brain can argue that there is a link between pedophilia and homosexuality. Finding underage boys attractive rather than underage girls, however, is *ahem* gay. If these priests would have molested girls, then they would be straight. This doesn't mean that there is a connection between heterosexuality and pedophilia. It's just that, by definition, you have to have some heavy homosexual tendencies to want to have sex with others of your gender. Likewise, you have to have some heavy heterosexual tendencies if you want to have sex with the opposite gender.

I read your whole post, did you read the whole link I gave you? Pedophilia is not "normal sexual behavior. It comes across more as a control exorcise. My argument, whether you agree or not is that sexual attraction to children should not be confused with sexual attraction to gender.

Quote from a different wiki on more general topics related to child abuse. Early research in the 1970s and 80s began to classify offenders based on their motivations and traits. Groth and Birnbaum (1978) categorized child sexual offenders into two groups, "fixated" and "regressed."[109]

"Fixated were described as having a primary attraction to children, whereas regressed had largely maintained relationships with other adults, and were even married. This study also showed that adult sexual orientation was not related to the sex of the victim targeted, e.g. men who molested boys often had adult relationships with women." Link to full article here Child sexual abuse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Look, I get what you are saying, but all clinical and legal evidence regarding sexual choice of these predators is showing that it is completely unrelated to gender preference. It would be more correct to say that it "seems gay", but given that in adult relations these cretins are choosing opposite gender in the vast majority of cases, "seems gay" is as far as I will go.

[endboss]

I read your whole post, did you read the whole link I gave you? Pedophilia is not "normal sexual behavior. It comes across more as a control exorcise. My argument, whether you agree or not is that sexual attraction to children should not be confused with sexual attraction to gender.

And if you had read my whole post, you would have seen that I fully agree with that statement. I am not saying that being gay increases your desire to have sex with the kiddies; I am saying that your sexual orientation is a factor that determines what kind of kiddies you victimize if you were so ****ed up in the first place as to engage in that kind of behavior. Furthermore, repression of their natural sexual orientation could have led these priests to commit the crimes they did. People will go to horrifying lengths when they are repressed by ideology. We are doing no favors by pointing blame at anyone but the Church doctrine itself for not allowing for a healthy sexual outlet, just as improving inner city areas through spending on infrastructure and education is proven to decrease crime. Let's say you have people that are more physical, then you open up a dojo to discourage them from joining gangs. People who are more intellectual? Properly fund the schools, create science competitions, and open up debate clubs.

... but given that in adult relations these cretins are choosing opposite gender in the vast majority of cases...

Since the article requires a subscription, I wasn't able to read whether or not the scientists had considered the possibility that some of the molesters could have been repressed homosexuals. Either way, a million tests couldn't change the minds of fundies, because they don't trust science in the first place.

[RPGguy]

Little girls go to church too (Bible school, choir etc...). But you only hear about the boys being raped. There's obviously a correlation. So what are your theories on that?

[Xandax]

Correlation does not imply causation - as the phrase goes.

[RPGguy]

Correlation does not imply causation - as the phrase goes.

Never heard that saying before. To me correlation most certainly implies causation. It just may not prove it.

[Xandax]

Never heard that saying before. To me correlation most certainly implies causation. It just may not prove it.

The common example being used to shoot down that thought is that piracy (yarr - pirates) are then linked to global warming. Correlation: Number of pirate attacks compared to the 1700 is down. Global warming is up.
Correlation does not imply causation.

Unless you can back up the link between the two, then you can't really argue there is a link between the two.

[RPGguy]

How abstract. I'm talking about 2 variables with a direct, logical relationship...

boys and girls go to church--->boys get raped.

I don't see how mentioning pirates and global warming (or bras and hydroelectric damns) serves any point beyond making the word 'correlation' utterly unreliable in any context...since at any moment in time there are infinite correlations going on everywhere, dealing with everything imaginable.

Maybe I should have said "there's suspect correlation between..."

[Xandax]

And as have been linked above by jklinders:
This study also showed that adult sexual orientation was not related to the sex of the victim targeted

If you can show more then a "correlation" for the notion that there's a link between the target of the abuse and the sexual orientation of the abuser - I'd like to see it.
And if not, that "correlation" is as useful as piracy and global warming.

[jklinders]

And if you had read my whole post, you would have seen that I fully agree with that statement. I am not saying that being gay increases your desire to have sex with the kiddies; I am saying that your sexual orientation is a factor that determines what kind of kiddies you victimize if you were so ****ed up in the first place as to engage in that kind of behavior. Furthermore, repression of their natural sexual orientation could have led these priests to commit the crimes they did. People will go to horrifying lengths when they are repressed by ideology. We are doing no favors by pointing blame at anyone but the Church doctrine itself for not allowing for a healthy sexual outlet, just as improving inner city areas through spending on infrastructure and education is proven to decrease crime. Let's say you have people that are more physical, then you open up a dojo to discourage them from joining gangs. People who are more intellectual? Properly fund the schools, create science competitions, and open up debate clubs.

Since the article requires a subscription, I wasn't able to read whether or not the scientists had considered the possibility that some of the molesters could have been repressed homosexuals. Either way, a million tests couldn't change the minds of fundies, because they don't trust science in the first place.

Odd. I don't have a subscription, and I was freely able to access them, One was from the CBC website CBC.ca - Canadian News Sports Entertainment Kids Docs Radio TV and the other 2 were from wikipedia, all are free sites. In any event, I found that info from a very quick search. I am disagreeing with your viewpoint on sexual orientation having anything to do with the selected gender of victim, this if I was reading the articles correctly is because the "turn on" is different for these very disturbed people. Since my attempt at researching for you failed how about trying some of your own.

And as have been linked above by jklinders:
This study also showed that adult sexual orientation was not related to the sex of the victim targeted

If you can show more then a "correlation" for the notion that there's a link between the target of the abuse and the sexual orientation of the abuser - I'd like to see it.
And if not, that "correlation" is as useful as piracy and global warming.

Agreed, I invite any dissenting viewpoint here to find an example of clinical evidence that contradicts what I have posted. It will be hard to find I think.