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Dungeon Lords Overhaul - Gameplay Modification by File Read Error

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Lady Kate
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Post by Lady Kate »

galraen wrote: .... although it's too late for you now Kate.
I've been told that before................ :D

I read the spoiler, and will have to try it, but in past play throughs I've put the bridge back down once I've crossed it and opened it only when I needed to cross. This time, I didn't think of it.......

FRED, did you add more danged goblins and slimes in the sewers?! Don't be such a tease and give us more ochre pollen! :laugh:
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Post by Cionaoith »

Here is the file:
MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service

You will need to delete the grn_model file, and replace it with this. Also, I think you will need to restore your sprites file.
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Post by Lady Kate »

Cionaoith wrote:Here is the file:
MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service

You will need to delete the grn_model file, and replace it with this. Also, I think you will need to restore your sprites file.

I had no idea it would be this large. Thank you very much. Downloading now. In hindsight, it probably would have been easier for me to re-install the game than for you to zip and upload those files.

"Restore", he says so glibly. :-) I'll cross that bridge when I need to.

Thanks, Cionaoith. Hope school is going well for you!
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Post by Lady Kate »

re-installing...

I'm sorry, Cionaoith. That had no effect on my surroundings whatsoever. I'm not sure quite why. I will re-read the read me file and re-install the game. I'm sure I screwed up somewhere.

I apologize for wasting your efforts.

I do still enjoy the mod, and will indeed continue to play it. ..even if I want to do *bad things* to those danged goblins! LOL

More, after I've had a chance to go over the files and attempt to sort out the mess I've made. :-) I'm just really glad that I actually *have* the game disks to re-install with! LOL
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Post by Cionaoith »

In that case, just back up your game save(s) before reinstalling.
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Post by file read error »

I still think something indigestible like claws or beaks would be better, the Ophelia wort could be added to the stuff that are dropped by Ents
Well, then the Worts would be way too hard to find. They should actually be easier to find than the much-higher-level katal "Mordis Vine".
My biggest criticism, in fact only real criticism (the other was just a suggestion), is the silly names you've given the creatures you've modified. Upo and Secret Car may mean something to you, but I think it undermines the good work you've done.
Well, if you have a hex editor you could just edit mname.dat yourself and put the old names back in.
I'm still in the sewers, just about the enter the theater basement. I have found ONE ochre pollen to go along with all that Ophelia Wart. *heh* You really ARE a tease, FRED. *cough*
The Ochre Pollen are dropped by mush men, which cannot be encountered in the sewer unfortunately.
FRED, did you add more danged goblins and slimes in the sewers?!
Yes, of course. As I said somewhere else, I increased monster group sizes. :D
Don't be such a tease and give us more ochre pollen!
They can already be found, just go and eliminate some mush men! :D
even if I want to do *bad things* to those danged goblins! LOL
You're bound to find a blast nova book sooner or later. If you have the cash, sell one of them to a vendor of your choice and buy back several. And make sure you kill all the mush men at Lake Lohr (where you get ordained favor). Do this with a high Alchemy skill active for best results. ;)
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Post by galraen »

file read error wrote:Well, then the Worts would be way too hard to find. They should actually be easier to find than the much-higher-level katal "Mordis Vine".

No way do I consider Mordis Vine even as 'powerful' as Ophelia Wort, which is the only non-findable element of arguably the most powerful spell in the game.

Not that it actually matters to me as I've uninstalled the mod, far too many unbalanced drops for my liking. Finding that I'd picked up a Kama of the Moon and a Fumata-Yari right after leaving Fargrove for the first time killed the mod for me. I also hadn't read other information properly either. had I realised the mod cheats in spells a character shouldn't be entitled to I wouldn't even have installed it in the first place.

That's not to say that there's anything wrong with doing what you've done, I appreciate all the hard work you've done, having done similar things in the past with other games to find what I've missed. it's just not for me.
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.

And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
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Post by file read error »

Not that it actually matters to me as I've uninstalled the mod, far too many unbalanced drops for my liking.
Sure, it's not as if the unmodded game was unbalanced in any way... :p
That's not to say that there's anything wrong with doing what you've done, I appreciate all the hard work you've done, having done similar things in the past with other games to find what I've missed. it's just not for me.
That's too bad, but anyway, have fun with the boring unmodded version that is always the same old stuff most players would be sick of seeing. Although I could also help you make your own mod if you like to, I have all the knowledge you would need and I'd gladly share it with you, but beware: making your own mod will probably take some time. Especially if you want to make it "balanced". It would take a lot of testing to see how it actually plays out in-game. ;)

By the way, you cannot equip the Fumata-Yari without high penalties anyway, so what's the point? No character that leaves Fargrove for the first time will have access to the Heavy Pole weapon skill!
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Post by galraen »

file read error wrote:By the way, you cannot equip the Fumata-Yari without high penalties anyway, so what's the point?
Almost 5K in gold from the merchants (not the thieves guild obviously) in Skuldoon! That pays for a lot of Ophelia Worts!:laugh:

I only actually dug this game out initially to give your mod a try. You're right about the vanilla game being predicable, and not exactly well balanced, after you've played it a few times.

However the one area that I thought was fairly well balanced, not being able to get high level Celestial spells unless you were a Celestial, was actually undermined by your mod. The same with Arcane unless you did the very unbalancing Big Bad Mog's quest, and of course spammed more than one cataclysm spell.
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.

And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
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Post by file read error »

However the one area that I thought was fairly well balanced, not being able to get high level Celestial spells unless you were a Celestial, was actually undermined by your mod. The same with Arcane unless you did the very unbalancing Big Bad Mog's quest, and of course spammed more than one cataclysm spell.
Well, that was actually a point that I had always hated - why should it work like that for Celestial magic only, while all other magic schools are available to anyone? Having just a bare handful of spells available, which are always the same old fireball, magic missile and burning hands, is just boooooooring like you cannot believe! That's why I made this (IMHO) very important change. A non-celestial player will have trouble getting his Celestial Magic skill up high enough to get a real use out of the new findable celestial spells anyway. It takes 10 points into Celestial Magic to have a reliable divine intervention (with 9 points it doesn't appear every other time, and with 8 or less it rarely ever appears) and without learning bonuses it costs hundreds of thousands of ADV points to reach such a high skill level!

But anyway, my offer to give you my mod-making knowledge (enabling you to make your own Dungeon Lords mod) is still available, should you change your mind. ;)
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Post by galraen »

The offer is very much appreciated, very kind of you. I have been tinkering, the idea of all katals being dropped did appeal to me. So far figuring out how link from the D6Mons to D6Treas works is stalling me.

I'm a bit fanatical about role playing so the idea of having to role play a mage to get powerful mage spells does appeal to me.

Obviously we all have our own grievances with the game. What annoys me is when 'monsters' don't drop things they've been using against you, the Elven Spirits not dropping their bows for instance. Silly thing to get hung up on admittedly, but it's usually the silly things that are the most irksome. I don't have any problems with bees for example, spiders annoy me far more.

I'm actually trying to play through the game as a fighter/thief (smurai/trickster/hatamoto) only using summons and (when forced to) poison cloud. Obviously at times that simply doesn't work and I then have to rely on scrolls. So far I've just made it to trickster, probably the easiest to do, samurai will take a bit longer.

PS I use XVI32 as well by the way, and have done for years, I too recommend it heartilly. If anyone wants to try it you should be able to get it here
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.

And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
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Post by file read error »

So far figuring out how link from the D6Mons to D6Treas works is stalling me.
IIRC (don't have the sheet here at the moment) the "Treasure Class" of a monster is found at offset +162 (decimal number), which means you have to jump 162 bytes forward if your cursor is on the first letter of the monster's name. There will be a hex offset that links to D6TREAS.DAT entries. All of those D6TREAS entries have the same length, I think it was 200, and a D6TREAS entry is made up of ten subrecords of 20 bytes each. The first such byte controls whether the slot is actually in use, and if yes, what kind of items the slot will create. If it's a 03 then it links to a D6TRLIST.DAT entry (it can actually link to two of these, in which case there are also bytes that control the chance for the monster to drop either of them) and if it's a 02 then it links to a specific item. Yes, this sounds very complicated, but maybe I'm going to explain it a bit better (it's 11:15 PM where I live now and I'm very tired) tomorrow. You can also compare my mod's .dat files with the original ones, maybe that will explain it better than I can do.
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Post by Lady Kate »

Goblins, slimes, rats...

I have to say--they are growing irksome.

Just sayin'............

I'm not sure that I am appreciating this aspect of your modification, FRED. :D

Goblins
Rats
Slimes
Goblins
Rats
Slimes
Goblins
Rats
Slimes
Goblins
Rats
Slimes
.............. I could go on..and on..and on... but somehow, this seems so ...repetitious...........*heh*
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Post by Lady Kate »

Exiting the sewers/theatre

I RAN! I ran, I ran, I RAN to the Apothocary! FRED, you are SO LUCKY that she had ochre pollen! :laugh:

My sanity is saved. I now have to go back and kill the troll, and clean out the rest of the basement/sewers, but I do so armed with a bezillion poison clouds. I am NOT CHEATING! :-) I was a Nether Specialist in a previous life! :p
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Post by file read error »

Goblins
Rats
Slimes
Goblins
Rats
Slimes
Goblins
Rats
Slimes
Goblins
Rats
Slimes
.............. I could go on..and on..and on... but somehow, this seems so ...repetitious...........*heh*

...

My sanity is saved. I now have to go back and kill the troll, and clean out the rest of the basement/sewers, but I do so armed with a bezillion poison clouds.
Well then, hurry up and get out of Fargrove or you will never see all the new monster types that I added! :D By the way, you could have sold one piece of ochre pollen to someone and then buy back infinite amounts. By my definition that does not qualify as "cheating" because you still have to pay for them.
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Post by Lady Kate »

file read error wrote:Well then, hurry up and get out of Fargrove or you will never see all the new monster types that I added! :D By the way, you could have sold one piece of ochre pollen to someone and then buy back infinite amounts. By my definition that does not qualify as "cheating" because you still have to pay for them.

...and that's all I had, was the one. It has happened that I've sold a kataal (or was is a spell? I think a kataal--and it was to Aleister..) to a vendor and it wasn't there for sale when I tried to buy more. I didn't want to take a chance. Besides--I knew where the Apothecary was, and that's where I wanted to be...... I'm much happier about the bargaining skill, now.

That said, I now think your prejudice against the bargaining skill is misplaced. I can purchase the kataals to make spells and sell the spells to the shopkeeper for a profit infinite times. I see no great difference between the two. I can train for r/t days and get infinite advance points, and now, I can sit and make infinite number of spells to make infinite $. So, if I want to have 1000 blast novas, I can.

It just saves *time* to have the bargaining skill...and, it makes sense.

IMO, encouraging people to use their melee attacks by pointing out that the more you USE your weapons, the less it costs to advance your skill. I haven't noticed that with magic. (It may work that way with magic too, but I haven't noticed that it happens like that.)

So, I will continue to use melee until I get bored with it, the beasties are being a pain in the butt, or until I am otherwise inclined! :-) Then out comes the poison cloud and the blast novas. (Oh, and eventually, the shards of stone..yum!)
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Post by galraen »

We all have different view on exploiting game mechanics, but using the bargaining skill definitely isn't cheating. Hacking the game to give yourself items you wouldn't otherwise get some people would call cheating however, so what, I do both!:laugh:We pay for the game, we can play it how we like.

Thanks for the tips FRED, so far I've got the hang of changing drops now, good fun. I always do hack a game to pieces once I've played it to death, just top see how it's done, and what I've missed, adds a few more hours of enjoyment to the game for me.
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.

And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
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Post by file read error »

...and that's all I had, was the one. It has happened that I've sold a kataal (or was is a spell? I think a kataal--and it was to Aleister..) to a vendor and it wasn't there for sale when I tried to buy more.
Yes, for some reason it doesn't always work, I think it has to do with the type of vendor and the type of items he/she normally has to offer. For example, Orlan Drey doesn't seem to stock arcane spells if I sell them to him while Aleister won't sell me any crystals I try to sell to him.
That said, I now think your prejudice against the bargaining skill is misplaced. I can purchase the kataals to make spells and sell the spells to the shopkeeper for a profit infinite times.
Well, of course I wouldn't ever do something that lame either. Maybe I should have said that this mod is supposed to be played without any kind of infinite-money exploits! Of course now the game will be incredibly easy for you because you have infinite money once again. All challenge will be gone now. That's very unfortunate.
IMO, encouraging people to use their melee attacks by pointing out that the more you USE your weapons, the less it costs to advance your skill. I haven't noticed that with magic. (It may work that way with magic too, but I haven't noticed that it happens like that.)
It's not particularly useful for weapons, either. Going from skill level 9 to level 10 takes how many million ADV points? And you get something between one and four points for each successful swing? It would take eons to reach the next skill level by just using the weapon.
We all have different view on exploiting game mechanics, but using the bargaining skill definitely isn't cheating.
Yeah right. Taking away all the challenge of the game isn't cheating, suuuuuuuure. I bet it wasn't intended for the game to work like that, the developers just left a big fat loophole and either didn't ever realize it's there, or they are just too lazy to fix it. Would it be so hard to just increase the amount of $ one has to spend for buying stuff by a factor 10 (and of course not increase the amount one gets for selling stuff). It would fix the endlessly overused bargain exploit instantly.
We pay for the game, we can play it how we like.
Of course that's true, but as a person who has a conscience and uses it, I always feel guilty when exploiting a game like that. There's much more fun to be had without such cheats, that's for sure, because I have tried out both and every time I used bargain I got bored to tears within one hour of playing, sometimes even earlier. I swear I will never ever use this exploit again in my life! You couldn't even PAY me enough to make me do so! :p
Thanks for the tips FRED, so far I've got the hang of changing drops now, good fun. I always do hack a game to pieces once I've played it to death, just top see how it's done, and what I've missed, adds a few more hours of enjoyment to the game for me.
Maybe you would also be interested in changing monster spawns? What about Gazers, Cacodemons and similar "rare" enemies spawning in the wilderness, would that be interesting to you? :D
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Post by galraen »

I think there must be a translation problem here, becaused exploiting game mechanics is not cheating, it's cheesy true, but not cheating. Cheating is doing something against the rules of the game to gain an unfair advantage. To accuse someone of cheating is an insult, and if done in the real world likely to end in a physical confrontation. You seem to be confusing cheating with behaviour that has come to be known as 'Cheese', i.e. exploiting a game mechanic in a way it wasn't designed for.

Bargaining in general is normal behaviour, buying something and then selling it back for a profit is silly (cheesy), but not 'against the rules', neither does it gain any advantage as there isn't an opponent.

Whilst I consider it cheesy to buy and sell back for a profit from/to the same vendor, selling items you find utilising your bargaining skill is perfectrly reasonable; likewise buying things cheaper for your own use is fine in my opinion.


Back on topic, I've been using your map changes, I much prefer the blue/green markers for friends/neutrals to the confusing purple ones. I also use the brush & grass removers, I would like to keeo the original trees, the naked branches and stake like poles are ugly, but that doesn't seem to be possible.
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.

And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
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Post by Lady Kate »

Moonbeasts?

.....are worth 7,000plus advance points only?

Nope. Not gonna work for me. LOL I *like* training my character on moonbeasts. I like the shiver of anticipation I get knowing that fighting off 2 or three of them, even more, in melee, I might not make..but I like the *experience* points of 25,000 even better... I *love* sitting in my 'sweet spot' on the island, *knowing* those BEASTS are going to come after me.....soon....I'm going to have to fight them off, using whatever spells I can, whatever strengths I have.. but at the end of the day I am rewarded tenfold--with advance points.....

An infinite amount of 7,000+ character..takes a LONG time to bulk up.

Should I even think about going to the Arena in Skuldoon? Did you decrease the adv. points for the minotaurs as well?

Nope, this part of the game is *definitely* unappealing to me.

Thank you for all your efforts, seeing some of the new bad guys was interesting, but I have to say it seemed a little strange to see a 'citizen' in the midst of a fight putting her hair up. :-) (Using one of the citizens for an enemy seer..)

I appreciate the opportunity to try your modification--thank you, FRED! :-)
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